Thread: Sharpening H & S HSS M2 chisels

Thanks for all the replies.

Originally Posted by BTman

When I got my Ultimax chisels from Trent, I asked him which stones I should buy to keep them in the condition that I received them. His response was to take me around the stand at the show and introduce me to Terry Gordon where I purchased the 2 Lobster branded Japanese water stones that he sells on the HNt Gordon Website. I have only have to touch mine up on the 6000 stone so far and all went well. Reasonably priced as well. The only trouble was, I tried out the planes as well and now have a reasonable collection of them too.

If the Lobster stones work fine, then these HSS chisels not that hard and pretty much any decent stone will work.

(Kind of disappointing actually. Normally I think of HSS as "ok, we're going to need to ramp it up a notch/pull some tricks to get them sharp". If standard, old school stones like the Lobster stones (King) work just fine? I dunno, I expected a little more than that.)

And much of what I wrote above will likely not apply. The list of what works becomes smaller as the steel gains hardness and abrasion resistance. One or the other, easy enough to deal with. HSS has the abrasion resistance, but if it's not 'hard' then sharpening it becomes rudimentary and shouldn't need anything really special. Proper stones for HSS make hard HSS simple to sharpen and moderately hard HSS a breeze.


As for the scary chisel? It seems to be able to do 3 times the work of regular, decent HSS chisel for the same degradation of the edge. In other words, my new 'test block' of a 2" x 4" jarrah lump blunts a normal chisel in seconds, HSS after half way through, the PM-HSS will take off a 1mm slice, and then go halfway again before it stops shaving arm hair, and there's no chipping at all. A few seconds on a good stone gets the edge back nicely.

Would be interested to have one of these H&S chisels to run up a sharpening schedule for the stuff, but it sounds like such a thing probably isn't needed.

Stu.

I have a small set of the H&S chisels; they're harder than anyting else I use in the chisel collection, but a high-speed grinder, diamond plates, Shapton stones and some patience make easy enough work of it. Probably take me easily twice the effort of a standard O1 chisel, but nothing to cry about.

Originally Posted by rsser

PS The diamond and other films are not good for freehand honing of the bevel, esp. at a skewed angle. It's easy to have a corner cut the film.

Other films inc. 3M micro-finishing abrasives that use Alox or Chrome Oxide; these are available in sheet form from The Sandpaper Man, or in a kit with nicely flat alloy plates from Woodpecker.
...

Ern

I see this differently. I use the diamond films for touching up, and they will abrade any and all steel types - they are diamond after all. Indeed, I have used them on steels many times more abrasion-resistant than HSS (M2). I also use them predominantly with freehand honing as my main method.

However I do agree with you - and have warned all in my review - that they are fragile and slice if used carelessly. Do not work edges across them, and do not remove large wire edges on them (I use a fine diamond stone for that). It also pays to use a fine oil to lubricate the surface, such as Camillia Oil. This will carry away swarf more effectively than water or even soapy water.

In my limited experience, they last many times as long as the 3M micro finishing film (noting that I have only used the 0.5 micron films).

Good for HSS? Absolutely! BUT I would not have them as my primary sharpening medium. For that I would use either diamond paste on a plate, or the Select II stones from Stu.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ok, a bit more perspective. This link takes you Brent Beach's somewhat famous test of 20 different plane blades. His tests are quite meticulous, and as it turned out, Academy Blades HSS M2 blades came out on topwith a rating of 73 (and that is not a %), with the Stanley HSS M2 blades from Hobart (Tas) coming in second, rating 67. These two blades were significantly ahead of the rest of the pack, with the next closest score being 50. Just a word of caution - there are two tests of the Academy Blades, one in 2002 and one in 2005. I presume from the results the the two blades were quite different. Also note that these results are now 5 or more years old, and so don't account for any blades that may have come onto the market since - although I'm not too sure that have been many/any. There are some blades coming onto the market soon from Lee Valley. The most important thing to bear in mind when reading Beach's results are that they were a test of edge durability, not the intial sharpness achieved. All blades had the same initial sharpness (deliberately).

It is very significant to this thread that Academy Blades came out on top, because as I stated in the actual Group Buy thread, these blades have been Trent's benchmark for his own metallurgy.

Trent is somewhat concerned the the sharpening discussion all too often gets bogged down. He urges everyone to stay with their current techiniques and stones (or whatever you use) and then make a decision on whether or not it is suitable to acquire new sharpening mediums. He makes the following points:

• Sharpening is a personal thing. What works for you may not work as well for someone else.
• Brent Beach's test was conclusive that if sharpened in the same way, all the different tool steels (inc. HSS M2) achieved the same level of initial sharpness.It was the wear resistance (abrasion) that differed between the steels.
• the heat treatment is the most critical part of the metallurgy process. Good steel will yield a bad result if incorrectly heat treated. Poor steel will yield a better result of correctly treated. Good steel with appropriate treatment will yield the best result.
  
• it is absolutely incorrect that the carbides are too coarse to get an excellent edge. If heat treated properly above 1180 c then you get full carbide melt in the mix and with the 3% vanadium very fine grain particles, and further grain refinement with subsequent treatments like cryo and additional tempers.

I have asked some existing H & S users to stick their head into this thread to talk about what methods they use. It must be remembered that whatever they use, they may have already had those on hand, rather than specifically getting them in for the H & S chisels they have acquired.


In short, it shouldn't be a big deal to sharpen these chisels.

Originally Posted by Schtoo

If the Lobster stones work fine, then these HSS chisels not that hard and pretty much any decent stone will work.

(Kind of disappointing actually. Normally I think of HSS as "ok, we're going to need to ramp it up a notch/pull some tricks to get them sharp". If standard, old school stones like the Lobster stones (King) work just fine? I dunno, I expected a little more than that.)

And much of what I wrote above will likely not apply. The list of what works becomes smaller as the steel gains hardness and abrasion resistance. One or the other, easy enough to deal with. HSS has the abrasion resistance, but if it's not 'hard' then sharpening it becomes rudimentary and shouldn't need anything really special. Proper stones for HSS make hard HSS simple to sharpen and moderately hard HSS a breeze.


As for the scary chisel? It seems to be able to do 3 times the work of regular, decent HSS chisel for the same degradation of the edge. In other words, my new 'test block' of a 2" x 4" jarrah lump blunts a normal chisel in seconds, HSS after half way through, the PM-HSS will take off a 1mm slice, and then go halfway again before it stops shaving arm hair, and there's no chipping at all. A few seconds on a good stone gets the edge back nicely.

Would be interested to have one of these H&S chisels to run up a sharpening schedule for the stuff, but it sounds like such a thing probably isn't needed.

Stu.

Thanks for the excellent replies Stu. Trent quotes M2 with a hardness of 62-64 HRC. I thought that was pretty hard as far as hand tools goes. Any idea of the hardness of 'Scary'?

Edit: I type slow.
I don't have any of Trent's chisels (yet) but I sharpen M2 plane blades with a couple of standard Norton stones and they do a pretty good job. But I don't have to sharpen often. Just a touch up every now and then. Unless you hit a nail you won't have to do too much sharpening anyway.

Originally Posted by NCArcher

Trent quotes M2 with a hardness of 62-64 HRC.

He quotes 60-62 Rc in his email today. He says 62-64 is for turning tools.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

He quotes 60-62 Rc in his email today. He says 62-64 is for turning tools.

That was the only rating I could find on the H&S site. It was for the Pro Series

Good to hear NC, that's encouraging.

FF, I agree that some sharpening threads go round in circles.
However quality tools are a substantional investment (for me at least) and to end up with tools I cant keep in good order without further investment isnt a road i can to go down ( without a long stint sleeping on the couch haha)

Derek, have you got any feedback about the LV honing plates intended for use with diamond paste ? I quite like the paste but as you've noted before the substrate is a weak point.

Originally Posted by Sam

However quality tools are a substantional investment (for me at least) and to end up with tools I cant keep in good order without further investment isnt a road i can to go down ( without a long stint sleeping on the couch haha)

Yes, I think that's exactly right Sam, and the primary reason for wanting to get the various inputs, particularly the manufacturer's.

FF,

That's all well and good, but do understand that the blades I'm talking about are on another planet entirely.

If what I wrote came off as denigrating to the H&S or Academy plane blades, I'm sorry, that wasn't the intention. One part of me is pleased they're relatively easy to sharpen. It's an important aspect that's often overlooked. At the same time, if a blade that's supposed to be sharpenable with old school stones, then it's absolutely 'down' in hardness compared to what it could be, but that's not a bad thing at all.

I'll not go into further details about what I've got here that's difficult to sharpen as it's not helping the conversation or answering the original question. It's quite clear than the PM-HSS I play with and regular M2 HSS are not comparable when it comes to sharpening requirements.


NCArcher, I don't know for certain the 'hardness' of the chisels, but it's likely the chisels are up near HRC64-66 and the planes are even harder, plus the other bits and pieces (allying elements) in them that normal M2 HSS doesn't have. But as they've not been actually hardness tested to the best of my knowledge, I base that estimate on the heat treating schedule used and that the chisels can be ground, but very carefully so they don't get hot. The plane blades are safe up to 550*C, which according to the specs from Hitachi puts the steel at HRC67-68, and I can believe it.

Don't forget these steels were designed to be significant improvements over and above normal HSS, and they are, without question.

I'll always prefer a tool that needs no special effort to put an excellent edge on it, simply because that's what I prefer. Sometimes, that kind of tool needs a little extra for it to be serviceable and that's why I also like plain old HSS. It adds to the service life of the tool in difficult materials and lasts a heck of a long longer in the more mundane stuff.

But when something makes even M2 HSS look pretty ordinary by comparison, you pay attention.

Stu.

Originally Posted by Sam

....

Derek, have you got any feedback about the LV honing plates intended for use with diamond paste ? I quite like the paste but as you've noted before the substrate is a weak point.

Hi Sam

I was involved in the pre-production assessment of the plates that LV are now selling. They are very good. Well worth buying. In fact in some ways I came to prefer the substrate to my cast iron plates.

If you want cheap cast iron plates, and go down this path, go to this link ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Woodwor...mondpaste.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by Schtoo

If what I wrote came off as denigrating to the H&S or Academy plane blades, I'm sorry, that wasn't the intention.

No, not all Stu. The whole blade/steel etc debate and design is a matter of hitting the "sweet spot" with several factors to be considered. And like sharpening, that sweet spot will be (at least slightly) different things for different people. Just as there is no perfect blade for all timbers. Indeed, just as there is no plane of a particular type that is perfect for all timbers.

Perhaps we may have been at cross purposes on something, but ah, I'm a little weary to try and figure that out right now!

Could Stu or someone please comment on how D2 (which I have in plane blades) compares with M2 - in general terms - please? (as far as sharpening is concerned)

Thanks,
Paul McGee

... having read through that very good link, particularly re the wear-resistance properties, I get the idea that there is a significant difference.
An old silicon carbide (or whatever) oilstone works fine on D2 ... what would it make of an M2 blade?