Thread: A Sharpening simplicity breakthrough?? Comments from the wise heads please

Hi Brett

You are desperate to emulate Basil Fawlty, aren't you?

I do not consider the diamond mesh to be suitable for a permanent sharpening set up. They are too fragile for rough work. On the other hand they make a fantastic travelling system, which is how I mainly use mine.

I've been using diamond paste for some years now. The reason I keep returning to waterstones is because the latter are easier to use in my workshop. I have a sink with water. It takes no time to prepare a waterstone and then use it. All this is out of the way. Diamond paste is good - essential on some steels - but the oily paste is messy and gets under fingernails and threatens to stain wood. Waterstones, when lubricated with a little liquid soap in the water, cleans up easily.

Go out and experiment as much as you can. Don't take our words for it. You will only learn by making your own mistakes, and then achieving your own victories.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

... You will only learn by making your own mistakes, and then achieving your own victories.

Regards from Perth

Derek

well put Derek

Ha - the weird thing is Cleese has an uncanny resemblance to my father (in looks only I might add - I provide the rest).

Yes, experimentation is where I'm at alright. O'course, had I asked some direct questions beforehand I may well have ended up with one of those honing plates, but I didn't and so naturally I'm working with what I have to hand now. Certainly I can see that with running water and a draining board, stones would be much more friendly. My enemy is space, and ipso facto benchspace. What would be absolutely fantastic is an island bench with a granite top and a sink with running water (and hot water too please - this is Katoomba). That would be crazy useful for all manner of things.

G'Day Brett

Sorry, it's taken me a while to get to this, work's eaten all of my spare time of late.

Much of my response echoes what others have said and you've already received much valuable feedback. I'll add a few observations.

I concur with the others that your methodology will most likely change with experience. I grew up on a small farm, was given an axe at 6 and through experimentation and observation learned how to keep that shaving sharp. I used an ordinary dry grinder and oilstones when sharpening my woodworking tools for many years. They were what my father and his father used and for a long while I was happy with the results. My practice changed when that set up became ineffective and inefficient with more abrasion-resistant blade materials and a larger collection of tools.

I tried diamond plates for sharpening and was very disappointed. They were initially highly efficient but lacked the longevity I expected from such an expensive piece of kit. There's a post I made referencing that experience somewhere on these forums. I still use diamond plates but only to flatten my waterstones.

I've used waterstones for a while now but wasn't that impressed when I first started. I thought they were good on some materials but ineffective on others. I certainly didn't get the upgrade over oilstones I was expecting. However, I read a bit more, asked a few questions, and ended up with a different set better matched to the range of tool steels I have and my methods of work. I've found that in systematic use this set of stones is excellent. However, this relates directly to how I work. I'm often sharpening a dozen chisels and the same number of plane blades in a session. Whilst I own power tools and use them when they are the efficient means of performing a task, I naturally gravitate to hand methods and avoid sanding as much as possible. The consequence of this is more sharpening so I need an efficient repeatable method and have a space in my workshop set aside.

When flattening the back of blades I go to work on any new tool and, based largely on intuition, work the back flat some way up. There's no 20mm or 10mm rule in my shed, I'd say most are very flat an inch up but the level of polish depends on what the tool's used for. I'm not mirror polishing the whole of that flat but the intention is to set the tool up for long-term use so that most subsequent sharpening requires minimal work.

As to gaps in your selection, at some point a woodworker will need to remove material in bulk when sharpening; some sort of grinder is the most efficient means of doing this. Sharpening woodworking tools, especially the thinner-bladed ones, on a standard grinder requires skill and experience; it's easy to damage the tempering/heat treatment. The combination of a slow speed grinder and wet grinder is the safest means of removing bulk material in terms of protecting tools and having minimal reliance on the skill and judgment of the operator. As my eyesight gets a little poorer and there are fewer competing demands on the family budget I'll probably move to this but at the moment I am very careful and patient in my use of an ordinary grinder albeit fitted with an alox wheel.

If you are happy with the way your rehabbing of the plane body has gone, stay with that technique. I use machinist's methods: prussian blue, a reference flat and a bit of mucking about. After this I remove the marks by passing the plane over a couple of different grits of wet and dry off the roll glued to a thick piece of plate glass. This is sprinkled with a few drops of detergent and wet down. I then return to the reference fIat to ensure I haven't dubbed the edges. In my view a polished sole on a plane is unnecessary, from a technical perspective it could have no discernible effect on the quality of output. It takes time and materials to achieve and will then be marred the first time you plane up a nice piece of spotted gum and hence annoy you. However, it's your time and they are your tools, so don't let anyone talk you out of what you are doing if you feel it's working for you. You will only be flattening plane soles infrequently, unless you are considering selling fettled planes, so the efficiency of the methodology is hardly material.

I hope this is of help.

Horaldic

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Thanks very much for that Horaldic, all good input. I finished another plane sole yesterday, and stopped at 80 grit. There was no difference in friction on the wood, particularly after waxing the sole.

Originally Posted by Horaldic

The combination of a slow speed grinder and wet grinder is the safest means of removing bulk material in terms of protecting tools and having minimal reliance on the skill and judgment of the operator. As my eyesight gets a little poorer and there are fewer competing demands on the family budget I'll probably move to this but at the moment I am very careful and patient in my use of an ordinary grinder albeit fitted with an alox wheel.


Horaldic

Horaldic

A very well constructed post.

I have heard at least one well known toolmaker comment that a standard bench grinder is adequate to profile a chisel or plane blade. You have to know what you are doing, be aware not to draw the temper and above all be patient.

Regards
Paul

wow, brett, tks very much for sharing your sharpening adventure.

i had a chat with the chap from the LN stand during sydney TWWW show, as he was selling stones as well. i asked his opinion about how much grit should one really go to, he rekon between 6000 to 10000 is definitely usable while 15000+ is probably "because of i can type" (which he said he would go that high).

i have no doubt going really high grit its better and getting silky smooth shavings is such a joy, yet i always doubt the sharp edge can last very long in dealing with our aussie hardwood, so i want to hear everyone's opinion on how sharp you think is the sweet spot between decent results and less resharpening. since as much as i'd sit there sharpening the blades for my knives, chisels, planes, scissors all day, i really don't have enough time in the shed ;(

Originally Posted by pkjames

wow, brett, tks very much for sharing your sharpening adventure.

i had a chat with the chap from the LN stand during sydney TWWW show, as he was selling stones as well. i asked his opinion about how much grit should one really go to, he rekon between 6000 to 10000 is definitely usable while 15000+ is probably "because of i can type" (which he said he would go that high).

i have no doubt going really high grit its better and getting silky smooth shavings is such a joy, yet i always doubt the sharp edge can last very long in dealing with our aussie hardwood, so i want to hear everyone's opinion on how sharp you think is the sweet spot between decent results and less resharpening. since as much as i'd sit there sharpening the blades for my knives, chisels, planes, scissors all day, i really don't have enough time in the shed ;(

Hi James

The only input I can provide to that is "the sharper it is, the longer it will stay sharp", so in theory going up to (say) 14,000 should mean a little less frequent return to sharpening.

As for the opinions of the wise heads, there will be a wide variety of answers, not dissimilar to the various inputs to this thread (and all valid). So, I think I can probably say that after any input from others you'll be left with "whatever works best for you" and that means try it out. Certainly I think there is pretty broad consensus that you should go to 6000/8000, and frankly 14,000 is only one minor step above that (and the cost of the paste for that step is very very low).

I must say that going through to 14,000 takes no time at all, especially the last two steps of 8k and 14k (30 seconds for each roughly). Therefore I'm inclined to go the extra minute.

With regard to the back of blades my thoughts are that it's no real big deal to go as high as you want, because it's a once only operation.

With regard to the soles, I've been cured of an obssession there (feel much better thanks) - the difference between 80g and 2500g was nil (with or without wax). IIRC most were saying you can stop at about 220g. Mind you, that 80g sheet I used had already been around the block a few times, so the finish was probably closer to 120/150g.

HTH
Brett

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Hi James

The only input I can provide to that is "the sharper it is, the longer it will stay sharp", so in theory going up to (say) 14,000 should mean a little less frequent return to sharpening.

One consideration for this sort of thing is the law of diminishing returns, so that the time taken to hone a blade eventually will not be recovered in a reduced time between sharpening. This is because the finer the edge generated the quicker it is knocked or chipped off the blade. Unless it's softwood I doubt that any the time spent above about ~8000 or maybe 10,000 on woodworking tools is ever really recovered.

Yes, point taken Bob. And further to your argument - is anyone ever going to really quantify the results (apart from Brent Beach)? I doubt it, so again, it reverts to personal choice.

As so many have said already (IanW in particular) the time for experimentation has to come to an end, so as to get on with the real show. Find a system that works for you, modify it, streamline it, and above all stay receptive to new ideas, techniques and products. David Charlesworth changed the lives of countless woodworkers with his ridiculously simple "ruler trick". That was sitting there waiting to be discovered (like all progress in the scientific world - the answers are there, we just have to stumble on them, or deduce them).

Another good example is Rob Cosman - in that video where he takes a new LN out of the box, a quick hone on 1000 Shapton, and then straight to 30,000 and into the wood. You couldn't argue with the shaving he produced. As I recall, the whole process took less than a minute.

In the absence of trying a low carbon honing plate, my quest has at least reached a hiatus. What I have now works well for me - it's quick, pretty clean, reasonably low cost entry (if I had just started with what I finished with), and reasonably cheap to run.

Originally Posted by BobL

...........the finer the edge generated the quicker it is knocked or chipped off the blade....

Bob, you may get some debate about that statement. If you mean the more acute the angle, the more fragile the edge, I would not demur. But received wisdom is that the finer the scratches (i.e. the finer the polish), the more durable the edge.

This is because, supposedly, you are approaching a more 'perfect' line where the two planes intesect. Instead of the jagged mess you see on high-power micrographs of honed edges, you have more metal forming the intersection. The attainable perfection of said line is limited by the size of the cutting particles & also the 'grain' structure of the material, of course. Perhaps the latter really sets the point at which using finer grits becomes a waste of time?

I also live by t'other Ian's adage, that there is 'sharp enough', & it varies according to the tool & the job in hand. I spend a lot more time on smoothing plane blades & paring chisels than most other edges. But I obsere the law of diminishing returns in most other cases....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

As a relatively newcomer to woodworking, I have one advantage in learning techniques, and that is that I’m not stuck in certain sharpening rituals / techniques or choices of medium and method.

i'm not sure how to interpret that Brett, to flip it over the other side, is that to say a long term 'woodworker' is stuck in their sharpening rituals

whilst that could always be a possibility, largely i dont think so, perhaps even more than the newcomer someone with experience can look at something with a critical eye and make an educated guess or an informed decision that its a waste of time, gimmicky, worthwhile or has some tradeoffs, or, it might just be the bee knee's so worth a try, of course someone thats been doing it for a while may have tried some of the other methods already as well and decided against them for whatever reason.

in some ways i do prefer old methods/systems but i can happily adopt or try out new methods as well, e.g on one hand i have taken on a new machine and system in the lapsharp, i think that demonstrates not stuck in old ways. on the other hand i still like old oil stones, particularly for on site (still nice in the workshop though), and a dry grinder is always useful, hand cranked is particularly useful on site. nothing wrong with wetstones, they are very effective, some have good stepping stone grit range, they are readily available everywhere nowadays which is handy and i tend to think they might be more earth friendly not digging up whats becoming hard to get high quality oil stones, and if people are used to or happy with that system theres no reason to change but i'm not keen on em, the mess with oil stones doesnt bother me at all, i actually find it quite clean in weird sort of way and relaxing to use if i have heap of honing to do, easy to transport too

not that keen on ultra fine diamond pastes or mesh sheets, diamond i find more useful to keep it for coarser grades or i touch up tungsten with it, oxides i find better if i have to use a paste.

abrasives arnt as enjoyable as using oil stones imo but they are very quick and effective so long as you are using the right ones, i've said in other posts which ones have advantages or not so i'm not going to repeat myself again. when ever possible i much prefer to flat grind, for some tools it makes a big difference, others not so much and others it depends on the circumstances whether its even slightly noticeable. i dont find there is any advantage to a hollow grind blade, its simply not as strong and for turning tools and a number of others just adds problems imo, if someone hasnt already invested in machinery e.g tormek or the like and your able to set up (afford) for flat grind in a workshop then it seems a no brainer to me. in times gone past you didnt have much of a choice due to wheels being about the only thing available to people, nowadays thats not the case and it seems the newcomers are the ones stuck in the old ways. of course from a financial pov for someone starting out a dry grinder and something to hone on is still about the cheapest entry point set up you can have so nothing wrong with that. people rave on about less steel to hone on hollow grind but its never been a problem for me and the ruler 'trick' i never use, its not really a new thing either, not sure why people think it is, we used to just call it lazy, ruff or cheating, go figure


might sound a tad controversial, but you did ask there just my views, thought i would pass em on for better or worse, no doubt others disagree and if others are happy with their system, thats fine with me, and different set ups work better in different situations/environments for various reasons and while its possible people develop or change their minds on what they like to use, for me i tend to use different systems due to the area or set up i find myself in, or if i was dead broke at the time!


cheers
chippy

Originally Posted by IanW

. . . The attainable perfection of said line is limited by the size of the cutting particles & also the 'grain' structure of the material, of course. Perhaps the latter really sets the point at which using finer grits becomes a waste of time? . . .



Cheers,

yeah, definitely, think i have mentioned before, but many of the steels just wont take an edge from the high grits (or small micron) abrasives. it really is a waste of time...

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

.

On a quick other note, pkjames got me a Woodriver BU block plane direct from China. There are some Chinese characteristics about it (the cap lever feels like chromed plastic), and the knobs are a little nasty, but after hollow grinding and then going through the MDF/paste routine I was shocked at the finish it left on Douglas Fir. Better than anything I've described below, and then the same on Spotty. Quite stunning really, and all of $43 worth of plane.

Well that's a bargain for sure however, I meant I use wooden planes not woodrivers. Sorry, i could have been clearer.

I forgot to mention one other occasional visiter in my sharpening process - a 25mm thick piece of alluminium plate. I got it to build a little etching press that still hasn't happened. It would hold your honing paste and if you're butter fingered and manage to drop the corner of a chisel on it'd be more forgiving than steel or marble...