Thread: A sharpening skills progression. Info for the beginner.

Originally Posted by kman-oz

All said and done this lot probably cost me ~$500 (not including the stuff I no longer use), but you can't put a price on sharp tools.
Dave.

I read and understand all you have said, but the above really sticks out above all else. Mainly because $500 to some people is the sum of the biggest one or two tools in thier workshop - okay if you can aford that amount go ahead - I certainly don't begrudge it. Unfortunately as far as putting a price on sharp tools, once again some may have to do so.

And let's be honest, sharp tools can be had at a far lower monetary cost, but that monetary cost is offset by the cost of effort. I certainly remember my father finishing furniture with a piece of broken glass, and my grandfather sharpening tools on the stone doorstep, even in the present day When I visit the Philippines where we have a farm, I am often amazed at the skills that some of the tradesmen possess. Homes are built from timber that is not only milled by hand, but every step, including such processes as tongue and grooving is done with basic hand tools, tools that are sharpened by hand, That doesn't mean that one should not embrace modern tools and methods, but that to keep in mind that there is more than one way of skinning a cat.

Denn

Dave

Rule #1: Everyone has an opinion about sharpening.

Rule#2: You are guaranteed to provoke heated debate by starting a thread on sharpening.

Rule #3: There will always be someone who has "been there" and gone beyond your current level of knowlege.

Rule #4: Sharpening means so many things to so many people that there is no way all can agree. We just learn from each other.

What I currently use:

Grinding: Half-speed 8" dry grinder with 46 grit Norton 3X blue wheel and 46 grit white wheel. Tormek wet grinder. Sandpaper on glass lapping plate (80 - 1200 grit).

I avoid waterstones for grinding. I have a King 220. It dishes too quickly. I have a 10" DMT Coarse/Extra Coarse diamond stone. The EC is for flattening waterstones - never used on steel. Diamond stones are destroyed by steel.

Honing: Shaptons 1000/5000/8000/15000. You'd better believe that there is life after a 5000! Paring and planing softwood and interlinked hardwood is a good test of this. Recently I received a natural waterstone from Lee Valley (a run out, so they don't have this anymore). Great stone! It is reputed to go as high as 20000.

Note that a natural stone wears differently to a manufactured stone. The latter are created from grit and binder. The grit remains essentially the same size, but wear and needs to be replaced as it wears. The natural stones have grit that breaks down and becomes finer and finer. In other words, natural stones can create a finer finish than their suupposed ratings suggest.

Just the tip of the iceberg...

Regards from Perth

Derek

G'day Dave
Derek summed the key points up, as usual. And Denn made a very good point about price. There's lots of ways to skin a dog. One thing I would add to the list is a good straightedge, one 450-600mm long. You can use it to check your stones plane soles etc and the piece of granite. I would not use granite without checking for flat, I have seen some woeful excuses for flat granite. Personally I think that thick float glass is a more reliable solution.

Cheers
Michael

Hi Derek

I'm interested in your comment that steel destroys diamond stone.

I got myself a XC/C 10" DMT and have been using the XC for flattening my waterstones and the C for grinding the initial bevel. This is because I'm new to the caper and wanted to avoid overheating on a grinder, and avoid cupping out a waterstone.

I thought diamond plates were made to sharpen steel?

Also, I thought the XC side would be handy for lapping an old stanley block plane I picked up... is this not a good idea?

Cheers
Tom

I didn't intend to upset anyone, Derek... I just wanted to put my experience out there in case anyone found it of value. I'm certainly not trying to preach. If I'd seen a thread like this when I started I might have asked better questions in the first place. Instead I learned the hard way, that's really what I'm trying to put out there; that experience.

Originally Posted by mic-d

One thing I would add to the list is a good straightedge, one 450-600mm long.

Good one, I need one of these

Dave.

Very interesting summary there Dave. I'm a totally newb to sharpening, but it's something where I need to improve on immediately as I want to desperately work on my hand tool skills. I only have a few hand tools currently, but they don't really operate too effectively due to dull blades and what not.

So I'm in the process of discovering all the particular ways of sharpening. I gotta say, sometimes I think there is too much information for beginners and as Derek said, everyone has an opinion which just adds another layer of 'stuff' to wade through. I'm looking for a straight forward sharpening solution - one that works....don't mind if I have to put a bit of work into getting a edge, but I want something that's easy and works, as long as all the steps are followed. And as Denn said, not everyone has a big budget. My budget for sharpening is pretty small at the moment that's for sure!!

I've been considering getting a couple of waterstones & one of those MKII honing guides - all up the package isn't too expensive and is in my price range. Is it easy to get going on some waterstones for a beginner? I'm guessing it's just all about the method, follow it through and ensure the stones are flat and you'll produce a sharp edge.

Anyway, would like to hear peoples thoughts about a reasonably affordable complete sharpening solution for an absolute beginner to sharpening

Cheers,

Will

Hi Dave

No upset on my part - my comments were just for balance by way of another perspective ... and I will add that my views will be not be accepted by others, etc .. just the way life experiences and learning go. We are a forum to exchange knowledge, and it is great that we can do so with the friendliness we do (you should try this on some of the USA forums!).

Tom

Just a quick reply.

I have a 600 grit (fine) diamond stone that is a good 10 years old, and it still works. I use it gently, but regularly. Used sensibly, diamond lasts, but it does not have the permanency that some expect.

I am not referring to the "breaking in" period when the stone gets used first .. that is, when the rougher diamonds get worn off. I am referring to the fact that hard use on steel will eventually strip the diamond off their backing. This is more apparent with the finer grits, but using a coarse diamond stone to flatten blades can and will lead to this as well. They will last a very long time for flattening waterstones and oilstones.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by jackliveshere

I've been considering getting a couple of waterstones & one of those MKII honing guides... I'm guessing it's just all about the method, follow it through and ensure the stones are flat and you'll produce a sharp edge.

If I was starting again from scratch and budget was a consideration, thet's exactly where I'd start. The MkII is a great investment no matter which system you use. Scary sharp works and it's cheap to begin with, but I found it frustrating. I found that cheap King water stones were more effective, providing they're maintained well.

Thanks Derek,

Grinding new bevels and flattening backs is not done too often as i'm only a sunday arvo toiler... but I think I will eventually need to master the grinder for hollow ground bevels... and get some glass for lapping.

Those 10' DMT's are too expensive to ruin! (although shipping one in from the states is so much cheaper than the $300 asked for locally.)

Cheers
Tom

Originally Posted by kman-oz

I didn't intend to upset anyone, Derek... I just wanted to put my experience out there in case anyone found it of value. I'm certainly not trying to preach. If I'd seen a thread like this when I started I might have asked better questions in the first place. Instead I learned the hard way, that's really what I'm trying to put out there; that experience.



Good one, I need one of these

Dave.

Dave, thanks for sharing your experience with us, I saw it as nothing more than that.
You have brought a few things that are of interest.

Regards,
Zelk

Originally Posted by kman-oz

If I was starting again from scratch and budget was a consideration, thet's exactly where I'd start. The MkII is a great investment no matter which system you use. Scary sharp works and it's cheap to begin with, but I found it frustrating. I found that cheap King water stones were more effective, providing they're maintained well.

Thanks for that Dave. Does anyone else agree or have some thoughts?

Cheers,

Will

Dave,

I appreciate your thread and your intentions.

When I started woodwork there were a few mountains to climb, one of them being effective sharpening.

When you read, listen, experiment and overcome many failures you are deservedly proud of your journey. You do tell others behind you of the obstacles and ways around them or how to avoid those obstacles.

There will be others who insist that their route to the same destination is superior and possibly for them it is superior but not necessarily superior for everyone.

I feel there will be many woodworkers who will benefit from your thread who are striving to celebrate that memorable moment when they finally get something really sharp.

What do I use?

Waterstones, ceramic stones, diamond stones and Arkansas stones. I also use the Veritas MkII every now and then to correct edges that have "strayed" over time with free hand sharpening.

Great way to get confused these threads. Before I start I'll explain the terms I use.

grinding: Hogging metal off a chisel or plane blade to rough out the bevel and remove nicks.

sharpening: Taking the edge to where it will cut and there is very little roughness to be felt when scraping the back of a thumbnail.

honing: taking the edge to a mirror finish that will catch a finger nail when lightly passed over it.

My approach is very similar to Dave's. The metal I use is usually Rc62 (ish) and I have found the King stones do not cut fast or well enough. Especially with D2, HSS and Academy Sawworks blades.

Grinding - Aluminium oxide Norton wheel. 3000rpm but would like it to be slower. Just need to dip more often and be careful.

Sharpening - mostly a water wheel (especially to hollow grind).

Honing - Shapton water stones.

10" DMT Duosharp coarse, fine and extra fine. The diamond plates are great for flattening water stones. Also for occasional hand finessing of blades (changing angles slightly and flattening backs of thin blades)

Other bits: granite plate, Veritas MkII and a Veritas steel lapping plate (for flattening)

Great post Dave! And thanks Groggy for the explanations.

It can be hard to really understand and gauge the concepts and methods without critical comparisons. Derek has provided all the key reasons why we need critical comparisons and debates :

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Rule #1: Everyone has an opinion about sharpening.

Rule#2: You are guaranteed to provoke heated debate by starting a thread on sharpening.

Rule #3: There will always be someone who has "been there" and gone beyond your current level of knowlege.

Rule #4: Sharpening means so many things to so many people that there is no way all can agree. We just learn from each other.

I will be back with a few questions within the next month (once i have had a chance to blunten my new toys).

Cheers
Ryan