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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Nano?



    Regards
    Paul
    "Pico", even!

    -Peter

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by P.W.H. View Post
    "Pico", even!

    -Peter
    Measure the modifications in picos and the gains in parsecs!

  4. #63
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    Mar 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cgcc View Post
    I suspect that this is very uncommercial though - no-one would make money out of equipment given how widespread all the equipment is.

    I am already plotting a little wall-mounted box holding a corded drill and wheel for touch-ups though...
    This is the case for lots of things from woodworking suppliers. There will be a case once in a great while where something is cheapest from woodworking suppliers, but anything adapted from elsewhere will be marked up. Buffing bars, sharpening stones, suitable lubricants, etc. All far cheaper elsewhere.

    The buffing bar difference is stark. The bars from mcmaster carr (which is an industrial supplier here and generally is above the price of cheapest source in return for convenience of being one-stop) are the same price for 3 pounds as some 3 and 6 ounce bars from woodworking suppliers. Some of that may be due to the ww-suppliers themselves having to buy from a distributor. A metal finishing company would buy from someone cheaper than mcmaster carr due to their bulk use, and whoever that would be would be high volume making up for the lost margin.

    oils for tools come to mind, as well as "honing fluids". I looked at the MSDS for something sold as a "honing fluid" for the equivalent of several hundred dollars per gallon. It was a mixture of mineral spirits and a slow-evaporating type of naptha. Not sure what those would cost at the industrial level, but probably a few dollars per gallon. Camelia oil also comes to mind - what is the advantage of it vs. a commercial grade mineral oil used to lubricate and clean food prep machines (those types of machines need a light oil that prevents rust, lubricates and that doesn't oxidize or impart any flavor. I have a gallon of oil on my shelf that's 12 years old and hasn't spoiled, and unlike camelia oil, it flows in a cold shop).

    It sells for about $12 a gallon here at commercial kitchen supply. Camelia oil is sold for about that in 8 ounces. It's my belief (and no further than that) that camelia oil is sold and recommended by gurus because it can be sold for more for 8 ounces than a better mineral oil product can be sold for a gallon. Norton sells "honing oil" that meets the same spec as the kitchen supply gallons for a large mark up, too, and its composition is found not on the can, but in the MSDS.

    that's a business reality, but it doesn't really bother me until someone gets in the middle of another discussion that's completely unrelated and starts policing ("the only acceptable ___ for rust prevention is ___, and you can't use commercial mineral oil for it") behavior with false information.

  5. #64
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    Aug 2006
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    Ryde, NSW, Australia
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    63
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    Good information D.W. Thank you!

    I am guilty of buying Camelia oil instead of a much cheaper alternatives. Slowly learning

    Cheers

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluddman View Post
    Good information D.W. Thank you!

    I am guilty of buying Camelia oil instead of a much cheaper alternatives. Slowly learning

    Cheers
    No worries. I'd bought three bottles of the stuff before I was done. The only thing that encouraged me to switch to mineral oil at the time was the desire to make a 1/2 mineral oil and beeswax mix.

    Way back when I did that, I still felt at the time like there must be a reason that people weren't using mineral oil and I couldn't get anyone to comment on whether or not it was as good at rust prevention. It is, and since switching to using oil, I haven't had an iron or chisel rust just due to the thin film of oil left by handling.

  7. #66
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    Oct 2013
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    Perth, Australia
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    Oooh yeah that's great info. I've been happily using camelia oil for the last few months but trying to use it sparingly because of the cost. I've got mineral oil laying around for cutting boards anyway.

  8. #67
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    Apr 2007
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    Sydney
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    Quote Originally Posted by bueller View Post
    Oooh yeah that's great info. I've been happily using camelia oil for the last few months but trying to use it sparingly because of the cost. I've got mineral oil laying around for cutting boards anyway.
    Getting off-topic here, BUT - "oils ain't oils, sol!!"

    There has been a great deal of proper scientific study into the efficacy and mechanisms of rust prevention, including the use of mineral oils. In their 1946 paper, Pilz & Farley determined that mineral oil alone is not an effective rust preventative, but that mineral oil required rust inhibitors as additives to provide protection. It is the adsorption of polar organic molecules (commonly used as inhibitors) on the metal surface from the additive that confers effective rust prevention. Many mineral oils have such additives, but it depends on the oil formulation and the use the oil was designed for. For example, a lubricating oil for machinery will likely have some inhibitors added, but not nearly as much as oils specifically designed to protect stored metal objects.

    So - use mineral oil, but if you want good rust protection, make sure it's an oil designed for the job.

    Living close to salt water and having tried many options, by far the best protection that I've found is Ferropak G15

    G15 Liquid Corrossion Inhibitor | Rust Prevention Spray.

  9. #68
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    May 2016
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    Perth
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    Preliminary use of the Unicorn method on a trashy modern Footprint bevel edge chisel that I have been using for chopping dovetail waste only because it has nice narrow bevels has yielded pleasing results.

    I've been making shop drawers from Bluegum, similar in density and rubbish grain and knots etc to Marri (less gum which is nice). I hog the dovetail waste out with a coping saw leaving about a millimetre to chop down to the baseline, using a guide fence a la Derek Cohen (note that here the comparisons between the dovetails Derek makes and mine end). Previously I would hone to 8000 and strop with green paste. Chopping the waste would ruin the edge, such that resharpening was necessary often. Now I can chop the waste out, and then clean up anything remaining above the line by paring straight away. Then back to chopping - and then it still pares after the second lot of chopping!

    I haven't been able to nail plane blades but Ive really only mucked around with the method as yet.

    Cheers,
    Zac.

    Sent from my Nokia 4.2 using Tapatalk

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergiz01 View Post
    Preliminary use of the Unicorn method on a trashy modern Footprint bevel edge chisel that I have been using for chopping dovetail waste only because it has nice narrow bevels has yielded pleasing results.

    I've been making shop drawers from Bluegum, similar in density and rubbish grain and knots etc to Marri (less gum which is nice). I hog the dovetail waste out with a coping saw leaving about a millimetre to chop down to the baseline, using a guide fence a la Derek Cohen (note that here the comparisons between the dovetails Derek makes and mine end). Previously I would hone to 8000 and strop with green paste. Chopping the waste would ruin the edge, such that resharpening was necessary often. Now I can chop the waste out, and then clean up anything remaining above the line by paring straight away. Then back to chopping - and then it still pares after the second lot of chopping!

    I haven't been able to nail plane blades but Ive really only mucked around with the method as yet.

    Cheers,
    Zac.

    Sent from my Nokia 4.2 using Tapatalk
    This is exactly the kind of feedback I like to see. You took the method, you used it, you achieved my results and you did it without crapping on potential shortcomings. I'm tickled and much appreciate the effort.

    As far as plane blades go, i intially said it would be a lateral move to the other early beta testers, but they wanted to see it. I think it's turning out to be true that for a lot of folks who don't have issues with plane irons, it's something to stuff off to the side except for bevel up planes. For those, it works great, shortens the time to sharpen and allows more attention to the back of the iron where a lot of people come up short having spent their mental energy on the bevel side.

    But for bevel down plane irons, I can see where people may get in trouble.

    The only thing I can guess so far is that I'm using a strong bar (5 micron calcined alumina) because the finish is still so good for it. It appears when we compare my pictures to winston, winston's using a finer abrasive and a slower softer wheel, so his buffer use ends up being more short and blunt at the tip. I think the stronger abrasive makes it easier to find the sweet spot for planes.

  11. #70
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    May 2016
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    Perth
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    Thanks David,

    I'm really happy with the results on chisels and am also happy to keep doing what I was doing with the bevel down plane blades until I'm a bit more accomplished with the method.

    The process also makes much more sense to me if I think of it as an 'edge fortification method' rather than a 'sharpening method'. I tend to think of a sharpening method as something that brings a dull edge back to sharp, rather than fortify a newly sharpened edge. Most of my mistakes have come from trying to Unicorn dull edges.

    Cheers,
    Zac.

    Sent from my Nokia 4.2 using Tapatalk

  12. #71
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    Feb 2016
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    Canberra
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    Fortification.

    I like it.

  13. #72
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    Apr 2019
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    NSW
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    is the micro bevel needed for this method to be properly effective?

    ive just bought some brand new narex cryo chisels, which i believe are 25 degree from the factory. will the 25 degree edge be ok or do i need to try and take them down 20 degrees and put the 23degree micro on it. Can i just give the factory edge a buff and away i go?

    i'm VERY new to hand tools with wood working same with sharpening (other then using my ken onion work sharp to get the kitchen knifes back to sharp).

  14. #73
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    Yes, just buff the 25 degree factory edge. You don't need to change angles at this point.

  15. #74
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    Apr 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    Yes, just buff the 25 degree factory edge. You don't need to change angles at this point.
    Thanks, for posterity, i will try and do as others have done and give a before and after as best i can

  16. #75
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    Apr 2007
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    Adelaide Hills, South Australia
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    Default Knives/scrapers?

    Darek/Dave

    Any thoughts/experience with this on knives/scrapers?

    I have for some time been adding what you might call a steep nano/pico bevel to the Japanese kitchen knives that I sharpen. The primary bevels on these knives are way down in the 12° to 15° included angle range, so the nano/pico bevel is essential to avoid edge failure with the hard steels used in these knives.

    What do I mean by a nano/pico bevel; you won't see it unless you go looking for it under a bright light or with a jewellers loup. It is added with a minimal number of strokes with my finest natural stones that have a grit somewhere north of #20,000. These are handheld stones, so the stone is held in one hand and the knife in the other, so the pressure is carefully controlled and limited.

    Sharpening micro bevel - YouTube

    I have found that the edges finished in this way are far more durable, but still slice beautifully. I'm thinking this can be explained with similar reasons to why Dave's buffing method works so well. Of course, nobody is going to buy a #20k stone to do it my way on an everyday knife. But, there maybe some who might duck out to their shed to buff the edge on their kitchen knives if they have a buffer setup there.

    I have thought about what applications the method might have to woodturning. One possible application of Dave's buffing method is on turning scrapers. Typically we keep the burr on the upper surface/bevel of the scraper and that does the cutting. However, that burr has a very short life and we are constantly reforming it. Much has been written on how best to form that burr to get the finest shavings and the longest life from it, but as far as I know nobody has buffed from the burr forming side and reported on that. I might give that a go.
    Stay sharp and stay safe!

    Neil



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