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  1. #121
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    And one more on sharpness of method (without discussing longevity).

    I like to use an india or india and washita and then the buffer. The india is a nice stone once it's settled in (I use a fine india). If that's slow honing, then it's time to regrind, no matter what the tool is.

    Here's an edge that I set up yesterday on a new iron that I made (it's made of 26c3, or a steel similar to white steel). India, washita, very light buffing (not heavy unicorn, so to speak). Notice how even the edge is. The deeper scratches back from it won't touch the cut and they'll be removed with subsequent sharpenings.



    26c3 iron.jpg

    Here is an edge at identical magnification from a shapton cream 12k professional stone. Look less at the bevel, but more at the edge, and compare the condition of it.

    shapton cream.jpg

    The only moderate priced stone that can match initial sharpness is the sigma power 13k, but it's a slow stone and most people are not going to realize that they're generally not finishing the job with it. With a solid minute of back work, you get to this:


    sp13k.jpgk.jpg

    A very good edge, but it's transient, takes longer, and we're comparing the best edges from stones to the "coarse" edge off of the buffer (this is just washita at the top, done quickly and buffed on a wheel with 5 micron compound. The particle size in the SP is 0.73 micron according to their literature....and it's slow because of it. What the shapton pro does is give you speed in return for lack of uniformity (it's a far faster stone, and anyone claiming otherwise hasn't done a comparison of the two working the same area of steel). There's no free lunch. We're just looking for one that's subsidized.

    (somewhere, I have a buffed edge finished with linde A, but I can't find it. I do have pictures of the results (it's a finer edge than the SP, obviously, and can follow fine honing in just a few seconds, you just fine up the whole process).

    Here's one picture - $2.99 buck brothers iron from home depot (you're seeing the picture through the shaving)
    https://i.imgur.com/nuk3Q0a.jpg

    And experimenting honing a japanese iron and then planing either cherry or beech (can't remember and the video resolution isn't good enough to tell which is which). This is just a shallow standard angle japanese plane iron, to show that you can adjust the method to deal with low clearance. The edge is prepared on an india stone, the tip worked briefly on washita as I recall and then buffed with the linde A).

    https://i.imgur.com/JyFkURR.mp4

    (from taking pictures of the results of the various stones on the backs and bevels of irons, it's safe to say that if you want a complete job with the sp13k, not just a good one, but one that's complete with as little effort as possible, it's better to prep the back first with another faster finish stone, as any deeper scratches left to the edge won't be removed, and they'll be a failure point. I'm not the only person to document the failure point, LV actually discusses it somewhere on their site, it's a well known thing).

    What's the virtue in all of this? Well, if you can create an edge that fails through wear only but is still sharp, then you can eliminate having to hone out deeper nicks. Here's a picture of a V11 iron edge after it ran into silica present in a bark inclusion in hard maple. This was a 35 degree apex and I was doing a standardized test. Not many people hone a bevel down plane with a bevel steeper than 35. The notches are several thousandths deep. V11 abrades half as fast as irons that last half as long, so the result is you generally don't get these nicks all the way out, even if you hone twice as long as you normally do, and it's not good at sparking off heat with a grinder, so grinding all the way to the edge isn't a great idea. I'm sure taking four thousandths off with a tormek would be agonizing, too (I had one for a while, very familiar with the slowness).

    These notches are identical to what you'll get if you use an abrasive wood that has silica in it, but just with the silica dispersed in pores. They're always about the same depth. Even though they're only a couple of thousandths of an inch, if they dot an edge ,they can prevent the iron from entering a cut. And then you're back to the hones.

    https://i.imgur.com/HAMAR3Y.jpg

    Here's notching from cocobolo in XHP (V11, I made the iron, it tested about identical to LV"s irons, but I just had to see if you could heat treat XHP in an open environment - you can't normalize it (but you don't need to if it's never been heated), but you can harden and temper it without a problem as long as you do it hot and quick).

    https://i.imgur.com/hVS0o7y.jpg

    Here is the same iron with a unicorn on the other side of the bevel, same wood, after many times more shavings (the first iron failed to cut after about 25 strokes in cocobolo).

    https://i.imgur.com/jWNFBFW.jpg


    The advice is often given to "buy up" in irons to deal with abrasive wood, or increase sharpness, but edge geometry is more important unless an iron is complete junk.

    If anyone does more objective experimentation with this, I don't know who it is.

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  3. #122
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    I found the linde A buffer picture - I have no idea what the small nits are at the edge. I may have done a lazy job getting the edge ready before the buffer (like the fine stones, the linde doesn't cut fast - you can't bring a coarse edge to it like you can the 5 micron buff).



    linde a compound file.jpg

    Just experimenting at the time. This edge is faster to get than finishing with a SP13k, but it's still easier to just use the "coarse" first edge that I showed - you don't need fine slow stones or fine slow compound, but the edge is very fine.

    I have a feeling that if one was willing to hone the edge relatively fine, the linde edge would come out dead straight without the little nits - it's not worth the hassle. The edge shown above would win at most kzeroukai events (where the shaving that wins is around 2-3 ten thousandths - but the record is something like a little over 1 ten thousandth, and I don't have yellow cedar or something similar to see how close I could get to the record. The typical 7 micron thick winning shaving isn't that hard to get.

  4. #123
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    I've enjoyed this clinic from the 'Sharpologist', as Derek Cohen calls you, D.W.

    Thanks

    Neil

    BTW - This one didn't come up for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    Stay sharp and stay safe!

    Neil



  5. #124
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    let's see if this type of link works better:


  6. #125
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    Seeing is believing, so my vision-challenged friend tells me.

    There's 2 pages of these SEM electron micrographs that put poo-poo to many myths regarding the soft plastic nature of steel edges.
    All I learned from Leonard Lee was that 1500 grit (measured in microns) was the upper necessity.
    Honing with fine CrOx/AlOx finished the edges sharp enough for very soft woods. (like a decent knife in an over-ripe tomato.)
    BUT
    What ever works for your medium. Wood, foam, soft plastic, frozen meat, raw veg. Make your edges the same, week in and week out.

  7. #126
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    I have the LL sharpening book, but it's been too long since I've read it (I can't remember if the book was just sharpening, so pardon if it's titled something else).

    Not sure I follow the 1500 grit comment, but I can say this -if the prior finish is 1500 grit and whatever you're finishing with completely removes the 1500 grit scratches on both sides of the bevel, then you'll have excellent edge life.

    The smaller the scratches that I found in pictures, the longer the edge life and the easier for the plane to enter and stay in a cut or stay in an interrupted cut (like you'd have until you have a board dead flat).

    I did test relative life for various abrasives, and I don't have the list in front of me, but remember it well as there were some surprises. 1 micron diamond was the finest abrasive that I used. this was edge life for smoothing (this is not related to the unicorn, but you can game the unicorn to get the same edge life as honing with 1 micron diamond if wood isn't abrasive with dirt or silica - if it is, then none of these edge lives are achievable because the edge will get dented like the pictures I showed).

    1) 1 micron diamond - 100% (the basis for feet planed)
    2) fine washita or black arkansas - 80-85% of the feet planed with 1 micron diamond (you can see my washita edge elsewhere here - it's a fine edge because I don't scuff the stone, but this was still a little bit of a surprise - I expected something in return for the extra effort with the slower cutting black stone but found that it gets to be difficult to use the black stone on tools and not lean on the tools hard to get the stone to cut faster, and this in turn will leave small amounts of damage on the edge, and if they don't come out on the stone, they come out when you strop the edge.
    3) 5 micron diamond grit, edge stropped (strong wire edge) on brass - 65% of the footage of 1 micron diamond planed (surface was never bright and the planing action wasn't very good - the plane worked fine, but comparing it to 1 and 2 above, far more effort was involved with planing to go along with the 65% figure (and it's fair to say if you took the first 35% of footage of #1 away and just compared the last 65% of feet that 1 micron diamond planed, the plane was easier planing and the surface was better
    4) 2.5 micron diamond- almost the same as 5 micron diamond. I don't know why and would say "toss the result". 2.5 micron loose fresh diamond is far more aggressive than most finish stones, though, and using it on a hard surface (be it something like an 8k grit diamond hone like DMT or just on metal) may also deflect the edge somewhat

    (I'll post below what pictures I can find - this was two years ago now, and seeing if V11 and other powder steels offered something significant over O1 and A2 was really the point of the test. A couple of sideliners didn't believe the V11 distance claims, but they are accurate if the wood is pleasant and nothing is around to nick the edge, and only CPM M4 tested slightly longer in edge life).

    At any rate, a comparison like the above is good to do with same plane and same iron in a short time span comparing finish at the start and end of dullness to really see things you may or may not perceive correctly. What i learned from this is that certain things that I thought were the case weren't, and I didn't know how much extra work they were causing me.

    One last comment - another person in the US had created a very precise setup and done this before - he came to the same results more or less except he used a guide with an oilstone and didn't get much out of it (oilstones aren't so great with guides, but they can be OK if you make sure the wire edge is gone - I think in order to get something good with an oilstone, like I showed above, you have to understand what the stone is doing and learn to use it the way it likes to be used, and the nuances of that are going to be hard with a guide). He also said that he saw increased edge life in a smoothing plane test like this (some, not a great deal) going to 0.5 and 0.25 micron diamonds. This adds extra steps, though ,and I think it's not practical one grind, an initial edge set with a medium abrasive and a microbevel of some sort (freehand or whatever chosen) with the fine grit and some back-side work and things are done. The more steps, the more time and the less likely they're all done well. 1 micron diamond is fast for 1 micron, but it does take a solid 15 seconds or so of heavy handedness to remove the wear at the edge on the flat side, and the final bevel on certain steels - like 3V - can take 50 strokes or more to get uniform. That's a lot. And it's a pain (I used a guide for testing so other people could disprove what I did if they didn't agree with it).

    Anyway - here's what 1 micron diamond looks like at 150x:
    https://i.imgur.com/I3miSbE.jpg

    The small lines are artifact scratches - probably stray particles or something. The orderly lines are actually oil. It's quite difficult to remove all oil from a blade at 150x. Even if there's a tiny bit on the side of a blade, if you've wiped the blade clean and then touch it, and then wipe the blade again, it will spread all over the blade. You literally have to wipe with a dry rag about 5 times, and each wipe needs to be made with a new section of rag.

    Note the edge, though, fine and uniform.

    Dan's black ark -no buffer on the opposite side, just back and forth work and then stropping.

    https://i.imgur.com/lxt9uYz.jpg

    Notice that the edge is uniform, but it's not as neat as 1 micron diamonds. This was hard for some people in the US to accept (that natural stones don't make the "best edge" in terms of sharpness, brightness, or edge life). It's just the way it is, though.

    (that's all I have of different stones on imgur). Light levels on some of these pictures vary, it's just the nature of the software autocorrecting for light or angles not identical - the only really important thing is how straight the edge is and how little the scratches do to cause the line to vary or have defects.

    re: the actual distance test, in one test, approximate footages planed before the plane stopped using 1 micron
    V11 - 1600 feet
    3V - 1300 feet
    chinese brazed iron 1300 feet
    Lie Nielsen A2 - 1000 feet
    My O1 (later tested to go slightly longer than a hock O1 iron, but only a few % different in total footage planed) - 800
    Japanese laminated blue steel - 800 (has some issues with large stray carbides, but a later post by larrin thomas in the US showing micrographs shows that it wasn't exclusive to this iron - blue steel and super blue often have poor tungsten carbide uniformity. Even if this iron was perfect, it would've lasted about with A2 (it's a myth that japanese plane irons last a super long time planing and can outlast anything if they're "perfectly forged". White steel is the most desirable japanese steel in my opinion, but it lasts less long than blue - it's just far more uniform, so you don't end up honing out much damage).

    I got some static from japanese tool fans about how they "know" that the iron lasts longer than anything else. I also got some static from some of Derek's trolls that the V11 result was wrong (it isn't). Larrin thomas used a catra machine (a machine that tests abrasive wear for the knife industry) and found the same intervals that I did on a relative basis -pretty much for everything. Relative life in the sand-filled media that his machine uses was only different by a couple of percent at the most.

    3V could go slightly longer, the iron was underhardened (like maybe 10% longer). It's a pain to hone, though - it's super tough (strong is more useful in woodworking) and can hold a wire edge even from really fine finish abrasives.

  8. #127
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    I had to work fairly hard to get a black arkansas edge that clean - the first couple of edges I checked under the microscope sustained damage from finishing the edge and then stropping on leather. Not damage that would matter much, but you could see it. The edge shown is the result of very light finishing pressure and very light pressure stropping (like weight of the iron and barely more).

    I don't think people actually do this.


    comparing these pictures to the small hand held scopes (which usually do something more like 25-50x optical and then software zoom in further, meaning the detail is sometimes not that great), you can see a lot more. The scope that I have will go up to 600x optical, but above 150x or so, the area you're looking at is so small that it becomes difficult to tell what you're looking at.

    For scale, here is a picture with a bristle from a grill brush. The bristle is .007" in diameter.

    https://i.imgur.com/S7dBECR.jpg

    As much as I'd like to say that spending about 10% of your time early on finding easier ways to do things doesn't actually yield anything (and that just reading a text and blasting away with a pet sharpening method), I've learned a lot from the scope and I employ it. Much of what I learned is what things add effort but not results. honing and polishing an entire full bevel doesn't yield anything, but it does make it physically unlikely that the process of replacing scratches will not be completed (despite much more effort).

    Straight razors became far better when a double hollow grind was figured out- all that contacts the stones is a tiny bevel at the end of the blade and the top of the razor spine (which becomes more or less a built in honing guide) The double ground, which is literally one hollow above the other, allows the bevel to stay tiny over the life of the razor. The smaller the bevel is, the better the odds are of getting the scratches uniform at the very edge.

  9. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    Your choice. Perhaps you've done something similar in isolation and shared it with nobody. Perhaps what you've done is not functionally the same as this, but there's some record of you describing it. One of the nice things about forums is two things will happen if you stumble upon something good and take the time to explain it:
    1) you'll have proof that you did
    2) there will be people doing what you described and doing it with success

    There's nothing else to move on to - nothing results in sharper, nothing results in better edge durability and nothing is faster. But you can do a lot of things with a buffer (some crude, some less so, some more tedious) that aren't the same.

    Certainly, if you already have done this or the functional equivalent, you can point to #1 and #2 on this forum.

    In truth I don't actually know what your method is, I've read very little of your posts. I was only commenting on how suddenly slow speed grinding has become the rage and has a "funny" name.

    Historically, I suspect that such a method was known at least 2500 years ago in ancient Rome and Greece. My guess is that it goes back even further to the Egyptians 4000 years ago. It was all but forgotten at least 200 years ago when industrialized methods pushed everything else aside. I've not been able to find a book less than a hundred years old that describes the process. It's less about low rpms, and more about low velocity removal of material.

    So you want proof of dates eh... Everyone wants references now don't they... In a former life here I was called toolin around. The start of me explaining the method is here This was a good weekend to test a theory of mine Good enough? Or would you like my old boss from the 80s and 90s write a stat dec on what he witnessed 😉

    But, I go much further back than that. I first happened on slow speed grinding in about 1981, when I used to grind off the back of a lathe at home and used a grinder at the shop. Having to use two methods side by side really demonstrated the advantage of the slow speed method. In the late 90s or early 00s I put together a purpose built grinder with two 4 step pulleys that worked pretty good but lacked the slower speed that I felt it needed. When I moved to Aus in 2005 I started on the next incarnation that was driven by a variable frequency drive, a 3ph motor a mandrel from LV, all bolted down to an MDF table. It was pretty rough but that was when I really started to understand how well grinding at sub 200rpm was. By then I had completely moved away from stones also to using MDF wheels. Literally found no need for them in any application from bench chisels, plane blades, moulding plane blades, to lathe tools or carving chisels. They only get used now if I'm onsite and need a touch up. At present sharpening machine 4.0 is in the pics. An old 10" cast iron pedestal grinder (bought for $50&#128077with a 3ph motor and VFD. Everything is done off that. It's only down side at the moment is the veritas tool rest. I have a purpose made one that allows me to grind planer blades also, yet to be adapted. If I need a specific profile to hone the inside curve of a tool I make it and away I go.

    I did see a Canadian company was producing a slow speed grinder about a decade ago but it wouldn't go nearly as slow I think it needed to. I don't think it took off because the price was stupidly high. I did contact them and offered to share what I had found but got a snotty response so let it die.

    I have mentioned it on other sites like sawmill creek but can't remember the name I was using.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #129
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    Hi TSD

    I am afraid that you are not talking about anything that remotely approaches the Unicorn method in your discussion about slow speed grinding. I do recognise the advantages of slow speed grinding, as well as power buffing when honing a primary bevel. However the Unicorn method is something quite different from this.

    The only similarity to power buffing is that a powered buff is used. The point of the Unicorn method is to create a high angle nano tertiary bevel. One is not buffing the edge; one is actually changing the angle of the edge. It does not matter what speed you do this - it can range between a high speed buffer to a low speed buffer to hand speed on a stone. The aim is still the same: to create a nano tertiary bevel.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  11. #130
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    Derek beat me to responding. There's no slow speed grinding involved - that literally has nothing to do with it.

  12. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    One is not buffing the edge; one is actually changing the angle of the edge. It does not matter what speed you do this - it can range between a high speed buffer to a low speed buffer to hand speed on a stone. The aim is still the same: to create a nano tertiary bevel.
    ... and, with a rag wheel and a fine compound, the cost of achieving that is relatively cheap compared to most other sharpening methods.

    ... and, it can be done in seconds if mounted on a high speed grinder.
    Stay sharp and stay safe!

    Neil



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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    Hi TSD

    I am afraid that you are not talking about anything that remotely approaches the Unicorn method in your discussion about slow speed grinding. I do recognise the advantages of slow speed grinding, as well as power buffing when honing a primary bevel. However the Unicorn method is something quite different from this.

    The only similarity to power buffing is that a powered buff is used. The point of the Unicorn method is to create a high angle nano tertiary bevel. One is not buffing the edge; one is actually changing the angle of the edge. It does not matter what speed you do this - it can range between a high speed buffer to a low speed buffer to hand speed on a stone. The aim is still the same: to create a nano tertiary bevel.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

    LOL Well sheeeeeit. Don't ya hate it when some idiot comes in half way through a conversation, poppin off about god knows what eh!!! Not sure why I started off down that rabbit hole... Can't even blame the fire water for it. Disregard last transmission. I'll let myself out now LOL

  14. #133
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    No harm, no foul. What's the last thing anyone wants to hear about, anyway. Another sharpening method, or another sharpening method with an oddball name. I'm not a huge fan, myself, if for no other reason, but that whoever is promoting it is trying to build some band selling nothing for something and claiming it's something for nothing.

    This one works (though you can do it wrong and get poor results, like anything else), I make nothing off of it, and neither does anyone else to my knowledge.

    And you can call it whatever you want. It got a dumb name mostly because I bounced it off of some people on one of the US forums and they attached my last name to it. Not a fan.

  15. #134
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    now that we're nine pages in would you happen to do a very quick dot point write up of the tools you would generally recommend for this process? maybe add it to your first post?

    mainly for sharpening newcomer idiots like me, there's terminology like "hone with a medium stone".... not going to lie, I don't know what grit is considered medium, especially when the geography names like arkansaw and india ones get thrown into the mix. so a list of everything you'd recommend or currently using from start to finish and anything you feel a total novice may require (for someone like my self who might not have the "feel" just yet of a 20 degree angel)

    ie for wood chisels:

    **** grit diamond lap plate or stones
    lap plate holder
    angle guide
    6 or 8" bench grinder (or substitute a lathe)
    which buffs
    which compounds

  16. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by havabeer69 View Post
    now that we're nine pages in would you happen to do a very quick dot point write up of the tools you would generally recommend for this process? maybe add it to your first post?

    mainly for sharpening newcomer idiots like me, there's terminology like "hone with a medium stone".... not going to lie, I don't know what grit is considered medium, especially when the geography names like arkansaw and india ones get thrown into the mix. so a list of everything you'd recommend or currently using from start to finish and anything you feel a total novice may require (for someone like my self who might not have the "feel" just yet of a 20 degree angel)

    ie for wood chisels:

    **** grit diamond lap plate or stones
    lap plate holder
    angle guide
    6 or 8" bench grinder (or substitute a lathe)
    which buffs
    which compounds
    * Bench grinder, sander or whatever other powered method you want to use to grind (I like a 6" grinder, but 8 is fine, and if you love tormeks, same). I think hand grinding a 20 degree angle is less successful for beginners (it'll be more than 20 degrees)....it's less successful for me and I have at times used only hand grinding (without uni, no problem, you're honing a steeper final angle. With uni, you want the grind angle crisp and low to give you room to work).

    * you can also use a honing guide on coarse sandpaper or something very fast to grind (most stones, even coarse diamond stones, are a bit slow grinding with a honing guide)

    * buffs: stitched cotton or shellac cotton or denim (no felt and no muslin) with a number of stitches on the side (5 to 13, doesn't matter) and an unstitched radius outside of the last stitch about 1/4 to 3/4"

    * medium stone, like 1000 -2000 grit diamond hone or waterstone, or a fine india stone (the latter will start off more coarse, but be much better once broken in). It's still nice to have a medium fine stone (like a soft arkansas or a 3 or 4k grit waterstone, or even in anexpensive 8k grit stone for tool backs - 1k grit waterstones and diamond stones are a bit lacking for the back of a tool, but you'll get plenty sharp if that's all you have at first.

    * 6" buffer (or you could put the buff on one side of your grinder if you take the guard completely off). High speed. If you have an 8" buffer, that's fine, too. You can use a drill, but a cheap buffer leaves your hands free and the more speed, the easier the method seems to be (within reason).

    * Any wax bar compound that you'll find that's white, green or gold/yellow will work fine. If there's terminology, "coloring compound, or cut/color compounds". If choosing by stated average particle size, anything from 5 microns down to 1. 5 microns will make a similar scratch pattern to 1 micron grit on a hard surface or in a stone.

    You only need 1 buff and 1 compound, but you can play with finer ones if you want to be a tycoon - if you get buffing compounds from a place that caters to polishers, they'll be far cheaper (and as good or better) than what you get from woodworking supply places. I think my 2kg 5 micron bar was about $10 and lots of places ask for more than that for the bar that LV sells (and it's only 6 ounces). The fine green compound from osborne is about $15 here for 2kg, and it's finer than the stuff LV sells.

    You can also use paraffin wax and make your own if you find loose alumina that's really fine, but you need a particle size of 1-2 microns to have enough cutting power (the green stuff sold by LV has a lot of large particles in it - it's not a 0.5 micron compound or anywhere close -that makes it better for this, but it's overpriced for what it is because woodworking shops are never going to deal in buffing bars in volume. Mcmaster carr is where I get buffing stuff in the US, and there will be similar industrial supply there, I'd bet. Even if you get cheap bars off of a discount tool store's wall, they'll work fine. I bought a $1 clearance white 6 oz bar from sears, and it's excellent. It would've been $3 had it not been on sale.

    You can use the buffing bar on wood to refine the back of a tool if your medium stone is too coarse. No need for a specialty bar. If it's hard, just use a drop of mineral oil and scribble on that and it'll help the bar "write" compound off on the wood easily.

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