New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II – Review

**derekcohen** · 8th June 2005, 12:19 AM

apricotripper

I have these romantic fantasies ... illusions ... of travelling back in time, not so much to the technology of yesteryear, but to the values (the experience may be just a figment of my imagination but the sentiments are real). This is one of the factors that fuels my interest in handtools. This interest includes the history of handtools as well as the techniques of their use. Of course, another reason why I choose to use handtools is because I prefer this expression of art (just as some might experience a high with their routertable). And so my collection of tools includes a mix of the old (some quite collectable - although my rule is that all must be used and not just admired on a shelf) and the new (some quite futuristic, if seen through the eyes of yesteryear). I know many Neanderthal woodworkers who would look down on some of the newer designs, but they miss the point that these still continue to carry the spirit of yesteryear. I find using handtools challenging and exhilirating, but many beginners find them frustrating and often give up at the start of the journey. It is important to support them through the early conflicts of self confidence until they grow and fly on their own. In the context of this is seems such a thing of minor importance just how we go about getting a blade sharp. What is more important is that we use the blades, use the tools that use the blades, and that we support the romance and ideals of yesteryear. As it happens, I spent time learning to freehand my blades. In part this was to further my hand skills, in part because it is a quicker process for some sharpening tasks. I am reasonably good at it, but not good enough that I get to maintain flat bevels. Over time they round off - just like the woodworkers of yesterday! I think that one of the fantasies of these woodworkers having the ability to freehand sharpen with the strength of a god is an illusion - I have seen many, many vintage blades that looked like they could not scrape paint, never mind shave arm hairs.

There is another factor that we must consider - that we are ushering in a new era in handplanes, one that is going to insist on a higher degree of discipline and exactness when sharpening blades. This is not because there is a moving towards the machining mentality of some obsessional power tool users, but rather because the new order of hand planes demands precision in setting up.

I describe the following rather simplistically, but sufficiently I hope, since I wish to make a point and not ramble on and on.

If all we used were bevel down planes, then there is no need to be precise when establishing the bevel angle. 25 or 29 or 31 degrees - it does not make much difference. Honing freehand is not going to be penalised if we wander off a designated, say, 25 degree objective. Even honing a microbevel - difficult enough to do freehand - is possible since it matters little if these are off by a few degrees.

However, we are now witnessing a small revolution in handplane design in the form of the increasing numbers of bevel up planes coming into the market. The advantage of these planes is not just that they are fundamentally a better design than the bevel down brigade (since they offer improved blade stability, with resultant reduced chatter), and that they do this at a lesser financial cost as well, but these bevel up planes are just so more adaptable and versatile than anything else. It is the versatility factor that demands a the precision I mentioned earlier on. Where it matters little at what angle the bevel down blade is honed, it matters all what the bevel up blade is honed at since this is what determines their cutting angle. There is a vaste difference between a blade that cuts at 45 degrees and one that cuts at 55 or 60 degrees. So now we need the jigs and guides to hone to precise angles.

Along with this change comes a growing awareness - driven by teachers such as David Charlesworth - that there are sharpening strategies that can reduce the amount of time needed to get a sharp edge and, further more, that it costs little extra time to take this to a near-perfect level. The age of micro-bevels and back-bevels (from the "ruler trick") is now with us.

Yet another component is the advancement in sharpening equipment: better and better waterstones that hone fast and at lower microns, and powered sharpening equipment that makes it a less physical activity, so that we may be willing to take the time to do it properly rather than give up halfway.

I hate sharpening because I am somewhat hyperactive and get impatient when I need to stop in the middle of a task to rehone a blade. Ironically, this has led me to take a keen interest in sharpening, if only to find a way to do it well but as quickly as possible. As my sharpening has improved, so I have come to appreciate a really sharp blade. I tend to work with difficult timbers and these are merciless with less than well-sharpened edges. They also require high angle planes, so the combination of these factors means that I must pay careful attention to the way in which my blades are prepared, particularly among the bevel up ones I use.

In summary, I do see an increasing move towards a science of handtool use in woodworking today, one that promises higher levels of performance at an affordable price, that was once the domain of the very high-end tools in the past. We do have a choice - to go down this path or not. Personally, I do both. I enjoy the simplicity of older tools as much as the higher octane performance of the new generation. I will also continue to use a mix of the old and the new when it comes to preparing the blades for these tools.

Regards from Perth

Derek

**bitingmidge** · 8th June 2005, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by apricotripper

apologies on saying it was a 'gimick' ... probably poor choice of words....especially to the designers who probably put a lot of time into it.

No need to apologise to me, it's all in the spirit of debate! (but I'm sure the designers appreciate it!)

I played some more tonight... gee it's nice, but there's another thread where someone wants a recommendation for a beginner's outfit, and that really has me thinking.

Hmmm.....

P

**JDarvall** · 8th June 2005, 01:24 AM

Derek
Unquestionally passionate all right,,,,,,, similar sickness to what I have......I'm too fond of yesteryear......I wish it was more like that now... I'd be more than willing to live that way, pushing a plane for a living,,,,,now if you push only a plane I very much doubt you can make a living ! .... and I think thats a real shame.......

power tools do things quickly .....but thats about it...their horrible.....their so noisey its like a jets suddenly taking off in your shed.....you got to look like a alien to use them with ear muffs, glasses and they produce so much dust that just gets everywhere....and to combat that you need yet another machine to get rid of the dust.....not at all like the effortless theropudic (spelling ?) process of hand planing.....the way the shavings curl up in that mesmorising way.....and you end up with a floor covered in shavings that are just cleared away in a flash....not like dust.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

apricotripper
Where it matters little at what angle the bevel down blade is honed, it matters all what the bevel up blade is honed at since this is what determines their cutting angle. There is a vaste difference between a blade that cuts at 45 degrees and one that cuts at 55 or 60 degrees. So now we need the jigs and guides to hone to precise angles.
Derek

I agree with you on the concept of bevel up planes......45 degrees effective pitch differing over 55 degrees etc.....ie the need to get the angle spot on.......but what I don't understand is what differs in the way you set up a modern guide (say the MK2) to get that accuracy over the way you set up a simple guide like that carpatec version I have.......I'm certain that I'm getting the angles I'm aiming at.....I must be ......afterall I set it in the same way.....ie. the distance from the edge to the guide.......this distance is always a constant for a particular angle isn't it , regardless of wear?.......you do that too with the MK2 as well don't you ? or am I missing something.......if I'm out then at most it could only be by 1 degree either way.....and surely that couldn't make that much a difference to a bevel up plane........

and sharpening by hand....I practised a lot too, hit and miss for me, dependent too much on my mood.....I don't think even a beginner should practise it......In my opinion it increases the chances of him quiting before he realises what its like to plane with a sharp blade..... unless of coarse he practises only in the company of an experenced type.....but thats becoming rarer I think..... got to use a guide......

**derekcohen** · 8th June 2005, 01:48 AM

apricotripper wrote:

what I don't understand is what differs in the way you set up a modern guide (say the MK2) to get that accuracy over the way you set up a simple guide like that carpatec version I have

As I stated at the beginning of the review:

Notable new features include:

- a wider track, ensuring greater stability
- ability to use wider blades (up to 3”or 75mm)
- a wide range of bevel angles, from 20° - 54°
- the ability to cater for both micro bevels (in 1° and 2° increments)
as well as backbevels (10° - 20° range)

And it does this with MUCH greater ease and repeatability that the copy Eclipse honing guide (which is the "Carba-tec" you are using). The Eclipse is a good guide but it is not in the same class as the Mk II. Try using it with thick blade, such as Japanese chisels. Can the Eclipse hone a microbevel WITHOUT changing the blade setting. The Mk II can. Can the Eclipse hone very short blades, such as spokeshaves? The Mk II can.

With a good jig you can set up anything (and I particularly like your modification for back bevels - VERY nice job!). The Mk II just does it all for you, and more.

Regards from Perth

Derek

**bitingmidge** · 8th June 2005, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Can the Eclipse hone a microbevel WITHOUT changing the blade setting.

Actually Derek, it took owning the Mk2 for one day for me to realise that the Eclipse can!

It was forehead slapping time, but I had a small laminex sample, and popped it on the stone for the Eclipse wheel to run on, elevating it just enough to create a few degrees of microbevel! DOH!!!

WHY does one always think of those things AFTER years of moving the blade?? :confused:

I still love the MK2 though.

P

**Pat** · 8th June 2005, 08:41 AM

When will LV release this monster on the unsuspecting Australian public? Which major woodworking provisioner will pick up the ball and import it at a fair price?Rob/Darth/Hague/Carba-tec WA/Carba-Tec/Mik???? These are the questions that need to be answered, as from Derek's and the Midge's reports, this is one of the better sharpening systems around, especially for the inept!

I know that I could order it direct from LV, but I try to keep spending my money in Australia so others can have a job and at the moment I am flat motherless broke after the Sydney WWW show

**JDarvall** · 8th June 2005, 09:51 AM

yep......I'd say your right.....it can do all these things........I suppose what it comes down to is what the thing can do straight off the shelf........it was just my point that with a few modifications to something we have already we can also do all these things without digging deep into our pockets , with a little plate I can sharpen everything, from the very shortest blades to the skew.......and there is another advantage that these cheap guides have over that expensive one.........their expendable.......I have about 4.....I can drop them, throw them, modify them, and it doesn't matter because their only $12......and with a few of them you can keep them set ready for just one purpose each ..... you don't have to change any settings

And back bevels........10-20 degrees is the range for the MK2...... I can get as low as 2 degrees consistantly......

And whats the issue with changing the blade setting and microbevels.......if keeping the blade squarely set is not an issue then changing the setting would be as relatively quick as turning a knob(is that whats done?) to get the microbevel.....I just line up my guide to my setting fence, slightly loosen the tightening knob, draw blade back a bit so that it lines up with the say 30 degree line (or whatever the next steeper angle is) tighten up and I'm on my way again.........I mean its so quick, you do it without thinking........Whys that need to be bettered ?

**mat** · 20th June 2005, 10:21 AM

Derek

If you had both the old and the new version honing guides to choose from and you were sharpening a narrow chisel which would you use and why?

**derekcohen** · 20th June 2005, 01:45 PM

Mat

Without any doubt, the Mk II is much better than the Mk I in every respect.

This was not the case with narrow chisels until a few weeks ago. My Mk II was a preproduction version and, as you would have read, I had reservations about its ability with narrow chisels, particularly those that tapered significantly. The Mk I was, in fact, slightly better in this area. BUT LV responded to this and quickly came out with an improved blade clamp (you would not know that there was a change unless you know what to look for), and the result was a significant improvement. I will detail this in a forthcoming review.

All production Mk II honing guides come with the improved blade clamp. There should be no concern that you may get the preproduction version.

The short answer is that the Mk II now is very good in the one area in which it was average or questionable.

Regards from Perth

Derek

**Rocker** · 20th June 2005, 10:27 PM

Got my Mk 2 today, and am very impressed with the ingenuity of its design. I think, though, that I shall continue to grind the main bevel using Derek's jig on the bench sander. Grinding the main bevel by hand is so much more time consuming that I would never go back to it. Whilst I agree with Apricotripper that the Carbatec $12 jig can be used quite effectively, the Mk 2 makes it really easy to get consistently accurate results without the need to have the three hands that would be so useful to have when setting a blade in the Carbatec jig. So I shall use the Mk 2 just for honing micobevels and back-bevels.

I have to admit that I am not fanatical about going to extreme lengths to avoid tearout in difficult grain. If I get minor tearout, I sand it away; and if I get serious tearout, I fill it with 5-minute epoxy, and sand it smooth. At least in jarrah, this method seems pretty effective in hiding tearout. I know that the purists maintain that a planed surface is superior to a sanded one, but it takes consummate skill to produce a perfectly flat surface by planing alone with out any need for sanding; and I am very sceptical as to whether anyone can tell the difference between a skilfully planed and a sanded surface anyway after the finish has been applied.

Rocker

**JDarvall** · 21st June 2005, 08:59 AM

a friendly debate hey......

Originally Posted by Rocker

Got my Mk 2 today, and am very impressed with the ingenuity of its design. I think, though, that I shall continue to grind the main bevel using Derek's jig on the bench sander. Grinding the main bevel by hand is so much more time consuming that I would never go back to it. Whilst I agree with Apricotripper that the Carbatec $12 jig can be used quite effectively, the Mk 2 makes it really easy to get consistently accurate results without the need to have the three hands that would be so useful to have when setting a blade in the Carbatec jig. So I shall use the Mk 2 just for honing micobevels and back-bevels.
Rocker

I don't understand why three hands are helpful to use carbatec jig ???? one hand binds the jig to blade with thumb and forfinger whilst front of blade sits on your setting board ,,,other hand adjusts the knob .......should be very quick

And I don't think chisels should be sharpened with your waterstones ....period......excepting backing off and excepting very wide chisels because.......they are narrow enough to do straight on the grinder and buffing wheel within a couple of minutes at most......without the danger of boring small dishes in your stones.....and the importance of having a perfectly square edge isn't the same as with plane blades....freehand, you can take it straight in to square the edge,...freehand, again you can sharpen the bevel, fingers right up near the edge to monitor heat,,,to that point where it burrs,,,, then straight to a hard felt buffing wheel (must be trued so when it turns there's no bumping the blade) with compound to buff just the tip to knock off that burr and then back off on your polishing stone
......I mean if your observant with plenty of light its ridicously easy and fast.... I did my chisels on stones origionally, and since I got a buffing wheel setup I'll never go back to sharpening them on the stones......

Originally Posted by Rocker

I have to admit that I am not fanatical about going to extreme lengths to avoid tearout in difficult grain. If I get minor tearout, I sand it away; and if I get serious tearout, I fill it with 5-minute epoxy, and sand it smooth. At least in jarrah, this method seems pretty effective in hiding tearout. I know that the purists maintain that a planed surface is superior to a sanded one, but it takes consummate skill to produce a perfectly flat surface by planing alone with out any need for sanding; and I am very sceptical as to whether anyone can tell the difference between a skilfully planed and a sanded surface anyway after the finish has been applied.
Rocker

and I agree with you.....there definetly is a point where hand planing becomes too time consuming....having to sharpen greater angles.....only to find it didn't work...still tearout....and so on......easier to get out the sandpaper......but I still think the finish straight from the plane is far superior......in particular it feels different.....the pores aren't filled with dust as if with sanding......planing always worth trying first.......and no dust.....I hate dust.....gets up your nose , everywhere.....

**Roberto Perez F** · 25th June 2005, 08:00 AM

Derek, I got my new Veritas Mk-II homing guide today however; I will like to know how do you sharp spokeshaves and small planes blades in this jig?

Bobby

**bitingmidge** · 25th June 2005, 09:40 AM

Roberto,

Veritas make a small blade holder for that very purpose. I've been using one for some time, and it works right down to the tiniest blades (with a bit of caution) . I haven't tried it in the new jig, but no reason why it wouldn't.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...072,43078&ap=1

Cheers,

P

**MikeW** · 25th June 2005, 10:46 AM

Hi Everyone,
The Veritas small blade holder does work in the MK.II.

The LN spokeshave blades I have I can fit into the MK.II without the small blade holder, but they fit best with the blade carrier set to do Back Bevels (the green setting).

With the blade carrier set to do back bevels, the registration stop, for a 30* primary bevel, is the Standard Angle setting of 40* (the yellow 40* setting).

This places the entire spokeshave blade in the clamp except about a half inch out the front.

I find this more accurate and sturdy than the LV small blade holder.

Mike

**derekcohen** · 25th June 2005, 01:04 PM

I asked LV about add-ons for spokeshave blades, but have not heard back from them in this regard. Playing around with the MkII (I have to be careful how I phrase this

), as Mike has done (I have to be careful here as well

), I can add:

For the typical Stanley spokeshave blade (such as a #53), which uses a 25 degree bevel, do the following:

- Set the Red 50-degree stop on the Registration Jig
- Set the Blade Carrier Locking knob at Green

Regards from Perth

Derek

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