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  1. #16
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    Only reported the chipped blade to Carbatec Derek.

    I thought to go to the fount of knowledge re the sharpening - this forum

    Don't stress over it, I was just seeking a few hints which the group has provided. I can see that just as when I started sharpening with normal tool steel there is a learning curve. I think so long as the burr comes off in use and the edge stands up to normal use I won't stress over completely removing the burr.

    Looking forward to seeing if this PM-V11 does provide longer life too. Will report in when I finally get around to finishing off my new tool cabinet (Vic Ash). I used up every chisel in the shop cutting the dovetails for it, then spent a half day sharpening everything.

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  3. #17
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    Victory!!!!

    So i went back and thought more about it, seeing I also had to deal with the 50 degree blade I bought as an extra.

    Then I remembered I did have another strop, one with the flat hide outward, and really hard hide. I hadn't used it for a long time because I found that the softer strop held the paste better and worked fine, whereas the hard strop doesn't like paste at all. So I got it out, used some good elbow grease and yes, it removed the burr finally.

    Must say it is hard work sharpening those PM-V11 buggers! Especially flattening the backs, whew. I did cheat though, as I normally do and used electrical tape to lift the leading edge of the backs with each grit so as to make that easier.

    Even the 50 degree blade takes a beautiful fine shaving, so looking forward to using them after I get over this operation. (Got some really curly Camphor Laurel off Mapleman waiting to be turned into box lids)

    Thanks for the advice guys.

  4. #18
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    Hi Bob

    A question or two with observations ..

    The wire edge should have come off if you followed honing the bevel on the 6000 grit with lapping the back on the 6000. If you are honing with a guide, are you flipping the blade to lap the back? "Lap" in this sense is to wipe the back over the blade to wipe away the wire.

    You should not need to lap the back of a blade from Veritas. In this regard, "lap" means to flatten the surface. Their blades are the flattest from any manufacturer, and flatter than you can get them. If you actually tried to flatten it, then you will unflatten it.

    I warn everyone NOT to buy the 50 degree blades. The reason is that these cannot be cambered, and every blade (especially smoothers) need to be cambered. The camber in a smoother is just enough to prevent track lines. A blade with a 50 degree bevel is very thick, and there is too much steel to remove to camber ... and the camber for BU blade needs to be about double that of a BD blade. I recommend only getting 25 degree bevels and adding the 50 degree angle as a secondary, and the camber at the same time. The bevel is then thin and easy to camber. If the 50 degree blade was mine, I would grind it to 25 degrees.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  5. #19
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    Thanks Derek, as usual I get the good advice too late The damage is done as they say!

    I'm not disappointed with the result I got, or the performance of the blades so far, way better than the one old Stanley I have.

    As for the 'backs' yes you are no doubt correct, but how fine is the 'flat' surface they supply? Can you indefinitely leave it alone other than stropping?

    It's a moot point for me now anyway. And yes, I realised as soon as I started that my diamond plates are not equally flat, by the changing scratch pattern. This is not so much an issue on the old Stanley blades of course, you don't really notice it.

    I think my solution is more than satisfactory though. I made a texta line 40mm from the cutting edge of the back with a square. Then apply one layer of electrical tape and do the edge at 400, add another layer of tape increasing the angle to grind at 1000, then another layer of tape to do at 6000. Each layer of tape lifts the edge about 1/10th of a degree. It gave me a very satisfactory mirror polish a couple of mm across the edge and the resulting micro-bevel is about 1/3 of a degree which is pretty academic as far as angles go. Shaves the arm hairs sweetly No doubt I'll live to regret that lack of camber.

    I can see that the Ezelap diamond plate combo I have (two thin plates bonded on a plastic substrate) certainly is lacking in flatness. That was so obvious just looking at the difference in where they were taking material off. If anyone is considering diamond plates, just save up your money and find something of better quality guys.

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bendigo Bob View Post
    I then took it to a 6000 King water stone
    Quote Originally Posted by Bendigo Bob View Post
    Must say it is hard work sharpening those PM-V11 buggers!
    You are probably yet to enjoy the durability of the edge though Bob. Less frequent trips to the stones....


    I haven't use King stones, but I have a vague memory that they are not suitable for HSS steel, which PM-V11 is (a powdered version which is sintered - PM=Powdered Metal, V11=Version 11 that was tried, as I understand it). Others will know more about the Kings. So in other words, PM-V11 is a very tough version of a very tough steel, which requires a certain type/quality of stone to be able to abrade it.

    Your diamond plates will be fine for it, but just slower than you are used to perhaps. Do you have any other HSS edges that you sharpen?

    If I am right about the King stone unsuitability then it would be a good opportunity to dabble with some diamond paste. The blocks are around $40 or so from Carbatec (and you have a voucher doncha?) and the syringes of paste are less than $20 each for half a lifetime's supply of each grit. One block will service two grits (use each side) so you could get a 3000 and an 8000. Forget the syringes of paste that Carbatec might have. There is an excellent supplier in Ballina (details if you want them).

    All that will cost you probably less than a new suitable waterstone.....without the mess and hassle, with a superquick setup/down.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  7. #21
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    Yeah the back of those PM-V11 blades is quite dull and matte eh? That doesn't mean they are not flat. You actually get the same sort of finish with diamond paste - it's not shight and briny like a waterstone finish. It is only cosmetic, however.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post

    If I am right about the King stone unsuitability then it would be a good opportunity to dabble with some diamond paste. The blocks are around $40 or so from Carbatec (and you have a voucher doncha?) and the syringes of paste are less than $20 each for half a lifetime's supply of each grit. One block will service two grits (use each side) so you could get a 3000 and an 8000. Forget the syringes of paste that Carbatec might have. There is an excellent supplier in Ballina (details if you want them).

    All that will cost you probably less than a new suitable waterstone.....without the mess and hassle, with a superquick setup/down.
    Would love to check that out thanks FF. I tried to look up on Carbatec's site for those blocks, but not sure what it is you are referring to. And yes, a supplier of the pastes would be good. I'll give it a go for sure!

  9. #23
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    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bendigo Bob View Post
    T
    As for the 'backs' yes you are no doubt correct, but how fine is the 'flat' surface they supply? Can you indefinitely leave it alone other than stropping? ...
    Veritas plane blades have a reputation for being flat. That is flat with a Capital Flat. They are lapped to 0.001”. The instructions state, “no lapping is required by the user”.





    Believe this. It is true. Taking a new chisel out of the packing, I “lapped” it over a 12000 grit Pro Shapton. In less than 30 seconds the entire back had a mirror polish.

    Below are three Veritas chisels. The one on the left is untouched, as it came from the packaging. The two on the right each required less than 30” to bring to this finished state.






    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    You are probably yet to enjoy the durability of the edge though Bob. Less frequent trips to the stones....


    I haven't use King stones, but I have a vague memory that they are not suitable for HSS steel, which PM-V11 is (a powdered version which is sintered - PM=Powdered Metal, V11=Version 11 that was tried, as I understand it). Others will know more about the Kings. So in other words, PM-V11 is a very tough version of a very tough steel, which requires a certain type/quality of stone to be able to abrade it.

    Your diamond plates will be fine for it, but just slower than you are used to perhaps. Do you have any other HSS edges that you sharpen?

    If I am right about the King stone unsuitability then it would be a good opportunity to dabble with some diamond paste. The blocks are around $40 or so from Carbatec (and you have a voucher doncha?) and the syringes of paste are less than $20 each for half a lifetime's supply of each grit. One block will service two grits (use each side) so you could get a 3000 and an 8000. Forget the syringes of paste that Carbatec might have. There is an excellent supplier in Ballina (details if you want them).

    All that will cost you probably less than a new suitable waterstone.....without the mess and hassle, with a superquick setup/down.
    PM-V11 is NOT high speed steel (which is M2). If you treat it like HSS, and disregard the heat level, as one does with HSS (which you can get red hot and it does not matter), then you will destroy the blade!

    The steel in PM-V11 is close to stainless steel, which means that it has a lot of chrome in it. Chrome has large grains, and does not leave a fine edge, as one can achieve with O1 steel. A2 steel, similarly, has large grain, and this is the reason the edges can chip. What happens with PM-V11 is that the powdered metal (the PM part) creates a very fine powder, which is used to create the steel. Stainless (or similar) with the fine grain of O1. But you cannot treat it roughly, as one would M2.

    At any rate, King stones are possible - if you use the appropriate technique. PM-V11 is a abrasion-resistant steel, and you either need something like a Shapton or another modern waterstone, ideally a ceramic waterstone. But you can use less ideal media. To do so, the amount of steel to hone needs to be minimised. This can be done by hollow grinding the bevel.

    Look at my article on CBN wheels: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Woodwor...ningSetUp.html

    This is the type of hollow I like to create ...



    The micro bevel is indeed Micro!

    I would like to emphasise that the most important part of sharpening is how you prepare the blade for sharpening. Grinding can be the most important part of sharpening. With a great hollow, one can use almost any media to hone.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  12. #26
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    Ah ok, I had thought it was HSS. Note however that M2 is only one of several HSS types. This link shows six of them, and doesn't mention M4, so presumably there are more than six or seven. HSS M2 is just the one that is commonly used in woodworking edges.

    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    If you treat it like HSS (which you can get red hot and it does not matter)
    I'm not sure that's the case Derek - you can blue HSS and it won't ruin the temper, but I'm not so sure about going red hot (especially given that there is a vast temperature range in "red" hot). Bluing seems to happen at around 300-400°C or thereabouts, but faint red hot is about 500° up to cherry red at 750°. Probably varies with steel types, and note that I am no metallurgist. Chart here.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  13. #27
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    Brett, red-brown is 600°C and red is 650°C. You can take M2 to 600°C.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    PM-V11 is NOT high speed steel (which is M2). If you treat it like HSS, and disregard the heat level, as one does with HSS (which you can get red hot and it does not matter), then you will destroy the blade!

    The steel in PM-V11 is close to stainless steel, which means that it has a lot of chrome in it. Chrome has large grains, and does not leave a fine edge, as one can achieve with O1 steel. A2 steel, similarly, has large grain, and this is the reason the edges can chip. What happens with PM-V11 is that the powdered metal (the PM part) creates a very fine powder, which is used to create the steel. Stainless (or similar) with the fine grain of O1. But you cannot treat it roughly, as one would M2.
    . .

    [QUOTE=Helmenstine, Anne Marie, Ph.D. "What Is the Difference Between Chrome and Chromium?" ThoughtCo, Sep. 19, 2018]
    Key Takeaways: Chrome vs Chromium


    • Chrome and chromium are not the same substances, although they are related to each other.
    • Chromium is element number 24 on the periodic table. It is a transition metal.
    • Chrome is the name given to chromium when it is electroplated over another metal. It often contains chromium oxide, which protects the underlying metal from corrosion.
    • [QUOTE]

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  15. #29
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    Thanks Doug for the clarification. I get the two mixed up. But you get the picture.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    Thanks Doug for the clarification. I get the two mixed up. But you get the picture.
    Probably not going to make much difference as far as the discussion goes, unless one of us is about to drop a couple of million bucks on R and D.
    I got sick of sitting around doing nothing - so I took up meditation.

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