Waterstone problem

**Bushmiller** · 11th February 2013, 10:19 AM

I am a little confused. I had to flatten my waterstones for the first time the other day as they were long overdue. I had given the blade on my HNT smoother a real hiding planning some seasoned ironbark and spotted gum.

Not having performed the flattening process before I followed recommended guidelines and commenced using sandpaper. I used 6mm plate glass, which in turn was on my granite surface table. The only problem was I didn’t have the right grade of sandpaper. I had 240grit whereas 180grit was recommended. Saturday afternoon in Millmerran means there is no hope of obtaining hardware supplies! It was all going quite nicely but slowly and the sandpaper was clogging , presumably because of the finer grit (and also because the stones are permanently kept immersed in water). I could see the dish starting to come off the first stone .

As I had six stones to flatten (I only bought one myself, but one Xmas I asked for waterstones and the troops went overboard

, I wondered if I could use wet n’ dry. I had some 120 grit and to cut a long story short I used it initially dry and then wet. It seemed to work well particularly when I used it wet. The only issue now was I could no longer see the “dish” (looks like the back of a Japanese chisel) coming out of the stones as the colour was obscured with the moisture and I had to use a straight edge to see when they were flat. To do this I would wipe the moisture from the stone first.

I repeated this process with each of the stones with the exception of the finest (10,000) which I don’t use often and I didn’t flatten.

Then I came to sharpen the totally b******d blade. I had already ground off the raggedy edge and re-ground the primary bevel within less than 1mm of the edge. After about 20 minutes on the 300 stone I could still see light on the edge and had not achieved a wire edge. I knew something was wrong as I should have been able to have sharpen five blades in this time.

I checked again for flatness on the two coarse stones (300 and 1200) and they seemed satisfactory. The only thing that occurred was they seemed smoother than I remembered. For this I was able to compare to the other side of the stone with these two as I only ever use one side. This is just an idiosyncrasy of mine as they have the grit written on the back and it saves me guessing . When I compared both sides there was now a considerable difference in coarseness. In fact the 1200 stone now seemed to be approaching the fineness of the 4500 stone!.

Umm......Is this my imagination or what? Only one thing for it. I turned the two coarse stones over and in a few minutes I had the blades sharp and moved to the fine stones for finishing.

So what did I do wrong with the stones, if anything? Also is it reversible by continuing flattening with a coarser grade of material. I should stipulate that I am not really looking for an alternative method of flattening such as diamond, ceramic or other techniques. I know that sandpaper and indeed wet n’ dry used wet or dry are methods that work (I also ackknowledge there is always a continuing debate as to which is the best method of flattening only rivalled in intensity by which is the best method for sharpening

). My take is that the wet paper has filled in the voids in the stone.

The point that puzzles me, and I have read threads on this forum as well as generally on the internet, is that nobody else has mentioned this problem.

What have I done? Help and theories appreciated.

Regards
Paul

**FenceFurniture** · 11th February 2013, 10:27 AM

Hi Paul

I'll leave it for others to comment on the majority, but for checking the flatness of the stones, run a pencil squiggle over it, and flatten until the pencil has gone.

Cheers
Brett

EDIT: I know you don't have/want one, but a diamond stone is great for flattening waterstones. Also very useful for the heavy lifting part of sharpening or rebevelling.

BTW, is it an HSS or Tool Steel blade?

**Bushmiller** · 11th February 2013, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

EDIT: I know you don't have/want one, but a diamond stone is great for flattening waterstones. Also very useful for the heavy lifting part of sharpening or rebevelling.

BTW, is it an HSS or Tool Steel blade?

Thanks Brett

Actually I have four diamond stones: Three littlies and a monster (200mm x 100mm, I think, without checking it) but it would be more than ten years old. I actually don't like it much.

The blade is tool steel so shouldn't be that difficult to sharpen. In fact it isn't, because I have done it many times.

Glad to see that you have recovered from the epic GTG of yesterday. Salad for lunch

?

Regards
Paul

**Ben Dono** · 11th February 2013, 12:27 PM

I think you might have found the advantages of waterstones over most other sharpening systems. You can adjust the way they perform. With an aggressive surface to flatten them and using lots of water to flood the stone while sharpening it tends to cut fast. Using less water and generating a slightly dryer slurry it tends to cut less aggressively.

Personally I found it a but wasteful to use waterstones to aggressively establish an edge as it chews up a really nice stone fast. I save my waterstones for the best edges towards the end of my sharpening.

Your right a about sharpening being a strongly debated topic!!! Sharpening is unique for everyone! My opinion is just what I have been shown or worked out along the way. And I'm still learning every day!!!

I'm pretty sure it's reversible with a coarser grit for flattening but let us all know what you worked out!
By the way... Nice work with the troops! That was a great gift!

**Bushmiller** · 11th February 2013, 01:41 PM

Ben

The problem is that I wanted to retain the coarse stones as coarse stones. Now one side, which I hadn't previously used, of each stone is coarse, but the other side is much finer.

Yes , I was lucky with the gifts. I ended up with 1200, 4500, 6000, 8000 & 10000. The 300 stone I bought at a later date for doing exactly what I was attempting last Saturday: Remdial work following a major regrind and prior to final honing.

Regards
Paul

**FenceFurniture** · 11th February 2013, 01:43 PM

What grit is your 200x100 diamond plate?

**Bushmiller** · 11th February 2013, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

What grit is your 200x100 diamond plate?

Brett

I have absolutely no idea and I never have had an idea (reputedly about anything) what grit it might be. When I think about it, it is much older than than ten years: Closer to fifteen or more probably. I do remember it cost $120, which was huge then.

I bought it specifically to sharpen the blades on the 6" planer I had at the time. Like many diamond stones, it worked well for a while but quite quickly became very slow to cut. As others have pointed out it doesn't wear down to new grits like a water or oil stone and once the facets have had the sharpness removed the plate's effectiveness is drastically reduced.

I only use it now for retouching tungsten carbide on tools such as router bits.

Regards
Paul

**FenceFurniture** · 11th February 2013, 02:09 PM

Roight den. I'd definitely be giving it a go for flattening the stones. My two diamond stones are now near to useless for steel (220x, 600x) but they do a great job on stones - fast and flat, with bugger all mucking around (sticking down abrasives, yadda). To avoid virtually all mess (which is my BIG bugbear with using stones) just rub them together under a slowly running tap.

**Bushmiller** · 11th February 2013, 03:28 PM

Brett

Interesting. I'll give the diamond plate (it is a fine surface for honing) a go, but in the meantime what to do about the coarse stones and why did it happen?

Regards
Paul

**FenceFurniture** · 11th February 2013, 03:33 PM

**Bushmiller** · 11th February 2013, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

That's where I'm at too

.

The only thing I did work out was the reason I could not sharpen the blade initially on the coarse stones was because they were now too fine. I am guessing that given enough patience on my behalf (unlikely) and assuming I didn't drop dead first (not planning to) eventually I would have achieved a sharp edge.

Regards
Paul

**pjt** · 12th February 2013, 01:05 AM

I use a 400 after grinding then a 1000 for a polish, with the 400 I have noticed a similliar thing as Paul, I normally flatten on a piece of granite plate (bench top/headstone???) (not a real machine flat plate) with some 80? grit and water, as the grit is used up (washed off the stone) I find I get a finer finish on the surface of the stone and a resultant slower cut, if I have a fresh load of grit I get a much coarser surface on the stone and a quicker cut.

As Paul also said, it is harder to see the high/low spots when the stone is wet, but with a careful look and the 80? grit I find I can see the high and low spots simply by seeing the coarser surface travel across the stone as the high spots are removed, once the surface is uniform that does me, so maybe try an even coarser paper than the 180.

Pete

**Bushmiller** · 12th February 2013, 08:54 AM

Pete

Thank you. That's interesting. I used 120 W & D paper so I'd have to coarser than that. I'll see what I can dig up and experiment.

Regards
Paul

**Ben Dono** · 12th February 2013, 11:16 AM

Have you tried the 60grit silicone carbide powder? Some came with my first waterstone kit (I think it was a veritas kit). I used it a few times in the past to get the aggressive cutting surface back on the stone.

**Bushmiller** · 12th February 2013, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Ben Dono

Have you tried the 60grit silicone carbide powder? Some came with my first waterstone kit (I think it was a veritas kit). I used it a few times in the past to get the aggressive cutting surface back on the stone.

Ben

I don't have any powder and I'm a little reluctant to invest in any further forms of sharpening and dressing at this stage. So in the first instance I will try "roughing" the surface with coarser grades of W & D or sandpaper. Wednesday will be my first opportunity to try this, but thank you for the suggestion.

Regards
Paul

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