Thread: Waterstone tests: a taster from Stu of toolsfromjapan.com

Originally Posted by Schtoo

Just use loose abrasive. Fine sandblasting grit is more than adequate and cheaper than any sandpaper.

As always Stu....you are spot on.

My son (a Chef) gave me his MS5 Global 1000g (orange) stone when he returned from working in Europe. I tried it and was pleasantly surprised at how good it would cut until I found out how dished it was...tried the diamond stone and then the wet&dry to no avail, dropped in a drawer in disgust until your advice today.

Dragged it out and used the Ilmenite on a granite plate...took me less than 5 mins. to flatten, remember this was a badly dished stone, truly impressive,and does it cut...obviously have nothing to compare it with until I get my stones from you, so my results are very subjective. The blade I was sharpening is an LV A2

At present I have no fine ceramic stones... only a natural 'Green Marl' I bought from HNT Gordon years ago...it works very well to produce a micro bevel, mirror finish, but again very subjective as have no control start point, so no idea as to time to get a good edge,,,then stropped on leather with green 'Rouge'...sorry Mavis.

Unfortunately guys there will be no more testing this year until all the hair on my left arm regrows!

NB For those punters who live in or near Brivegas, there is/was an abandoned stockpile of Ilmenite under the Northern approaches to the old Gateway bridge, its on waste ground, just be aware, a twenty liter bucket of the stuff is nigh on impossible to lift.

Cheers

John M

Just use loose abrasive. Fine sandblasting grit is more than adequate and cheaper than any sandpaper.

(And you don't have to wait for the stone to get dry to use it. Especially when you consider many stones change when wet, so a stone flattened dry won't be when it's wet, so why bother flattening it?)

thanks for this info, Schtoo, but I am a bit confused. I have just bought my first waterstones, 1200 and 6000 grit , and want to flatten them after a fair bit of usage, so please bear with me

Are you saying that I should use float glass or granite, puts some fine sandblasting powder on it, wet it into a slurry? and rub the already wet waterstones on it?

Where is the best place to get fine sandblasting powder?

Waht do you recommend for changing the bevel angle of a plane or chisel? My bevels are all over the place (lots of 2nd hand tools) and I want to standardise them so I can use the standard settings on my Veritas honing guide

Originally Posted by JillB

thanks for this info, Schtoo, but I am a bit confused. I have just bought my first waterstones, 1200 and 6000 grit , and want to flatten them after a fair bit of usage, so please bear with me

Are you saying that I should use float glass or granite, puts some fine sandblasting powder on it, wet it into a slurry? and rub the already wet waterstones on it?

Where is the best place to get fine sandblasting powder?

Waht do you recommend for changing the bevel angle of a plane or chisel? My bevels are all over the place (lots of 2nd hand tools) and I want to standardise them so I can use the standard settings on my Veritas honing guide

Using any abrasive powder on glass will also lap the glass. The glass
will lose its flatness very quickly this way.

A cast iron plate is better because the grit embeds in the steel plate, not
so with glass. the grit rolls on the glass and also laps the glass.

You can use a piece of floatglass and put some wet and dry on it
to flatten your stones. 100 to 200 grit is ok. Some use higher
grits for very fine stones.

For changing the bevel angle, you can grind the iron to whatever
angle you want or you can just use coarse sandpaper on glass, like
40-80grit. Stick the sandpaper on the glas with spray adhesive or
just use self adhesive sandpaper. Another alternative is to use
2sided tape for sticking the paper on the glas.

Put the blade in your honing jig, choose the angle(25-30degrees)
and grind away. Keep grinding untill the two edges meet or you can
stop when you have almost done this. Then continue on the waterstones.

Use the ruler trick for the back bevel. Saves you a lot of time. You
will need a very thin steel ruler.

Sharpen the front bevel on your 1000 grit stone untill you feel a burr/wire
edge on the backbevel. Remove it with the ruler trick.

Now continue with your 6000 stone. You can use a higher angle here(by
doing this, you create a microbevel). This is done because it requires
a smaller area to be sharpened which means basically less time than
polishing the whole bevel.

Use the ruler trick again on the 6000 stone. On the polishing stone
you will not get a burr usually.

Thinking again about your honing guide, it would take a lot of time
getting the blade out to do the backbevel. I would recomment then
to imediately after having grinded the angle you want to first do the
sharpen the backbevel on the 1000grit(to get rid of the scratches) and
then polishing on the 6000 grit stone

After you have achieved a mirror like backbevel(with rulertrick or not,
your choice),put your blade in the honing guide and sharpen the front
bevel on the 1000 grit untill you get a burr. Now polish the front bevel on the
6000 stone untill it looks really shiny,mirror like. Feel the edge with your
finger, it should feel sharp.

Finally remove the blade from the jig and remove the burr on the 6000
stone.

Now you should have a sharp blade.

Make sure the blade is clamped square in the jig and frequently flatten
your stones so they stay flat.

good luck

Sazman

Schtoo has a number of posts in diff threads in this Sharpening section on how to flatten.

For myself, using W&D stuck to float glass, the results have sometimes been poor and there are reasons for this that Stu and others have analysed.

There's a big diff in effect between loose abrasive grits on a flat surface and grit held by mylar sheet or bonded to a substrate of some kind.

This is reflected in the choice of quality suppliers like Shapton or Veritas to provide loose grains in their kits with or without a flat plate of some kind.

Jill, if you PM me your email address I can send you more info on the use of loose grains that I have from Stu, if that's OK with him.

As for marble slabs, some may come flat but you can't count on it.

Float glass will have about 1/100" variation and is a better option if you get it in 8 or 10mm thick and lay it on one or two sheets of 17mm MDF, but again, MDF must be check for flatness too.

If you can't source fine sandblasting grit, then look at the V. lapping grits: click

Originally Posted by rsser

Schtoo has a number of posts in diff threads in this Sharpening section on how to flatten.

For myself, using W&D stuck to float glass, the results have sometimes been poor and there are reasons for this that Stu and others have analysed.

There's a big diff in effect between loose abrasive grits on a flat surface and grit held by mylar sheet or bonded to a substrate of some kind.

This is reflected in the choice of quality suppliers like Shapton or Veritas to provide loose grains in their kits with or without a flat plate of some kind.

Jill, if you PM me your email address I can send you more info on the use of loose grains that I have from Stu, if that's OK with him.

As for marble slabs, some may come flat but you can't count on it.

Float glass will have about 1/100" variation and is a better option if you get it in 8 or 10mm thick and lay it on one or two sheets of 17mm MDF, but again, MDF must be check for flatness too.

If you can't source fine sandblasting grit, then look at the V. lapping grits: click

rsser, the flatness of floatglass is more than adequate for
flattening waterstones. Waterstones are only 20cm or so long.

I agree with your recommendation to get thicker floatglass. Less
deflection this way.

I have very good results with just 10mm floatglass and putting
wd sandpaper on top of it, 180grit.

Sanpaper also wears, loses its flatness. So if you keep
using the same piece many times, you are basically trying
to flatten your waterstone on a non flat surface which of
course does not work.

Don't use loose grit on glass. The glass will lose its flattnes
quickly. Maybe if you sprinkle the grit over the entire surface
of the glass and flatten your stone using the entire surface,
the effect will be minimal, but I would not recommend it.

Sazman

Hi Saz,

I use a coarse diamond stone to flatten most of my waterstones (Shaptons, Bester, Sigma).

That was too fine for the #120 Shapton, so one of my plate glass strips got reassigned from my ScarySharp days. With some #36 SiC grains from Stu, it worked a treat.

Yes it gets abraded and having only used it once so far I'm open on the matter of whether it will get dished in time. There are reasons to think not, since the abrasive grains move around - this is lapping strictly defined (an abrasive medium between two surfaces).

I've done of lot of flattening of chisel and plane iron backs and plane soles using W&D on plate glass. In only one case did I get an acceptable result easily; I was following the recipe for plane soles but sure got a shock when finally applied a quality straight edge to the work I'd done.

So this is what I've learned and picked up from experts about W&D for this purpose, and by extension some of these limitations will apply to flattening waterstones.

1. W&D sheets use SiC which breaks down quickly; with lapping, the edges of the piece get more exposure to fresh abrasive than the middle. So convexity is the likeliest consequence.

2. W&D sheets use grains that are not micron graded; so a nominal #120 will have grain sizes at least 25% larger and smaller.

3. W&D sheets vary a lot in quality, partic bond. The stuff readily available where I live sheds grains like a bad scalp sheds dandruff.

4. 2 and 3 are not necessarily a prob at the shaping part of the process (lapping, bevel forming) but can easily wreck a polish at the finer end. And, you don't want rogue grains of SiC embedding in your fine costly waterstone!

What happens with loose grains on glass is that they move around so diff size particles get mixed up. Stu reckons that they 'peck' at the stone.

When the stone moves across one, it's not held by a bond and pushed into the surface; just to shear and embed.

Anyway, that's my one guilder's worth ;-} The more I learn the more I realise how much remains to be learned.

Since using a coarse diamond plate to flatten ceramic stones (and previously waterstones), my sharpening has improved out of sight. When I look at some of my old waterstones flattened using abrasive on glass, there is a visible rounding off on the sides. I was never sure why, but good to see I'm not the only one who has come to that conclusion.

Any coarse diamond plate bigger than your stone (I use the 10" DuoSharp) will do a fantastic job of keeping things flat. For some reason I get better results bringing the plate to the stone, rather than picking the stone up and rubbing it on the plate?

Originally Posted by rsser

Hi Saz,

I use a coarse diamond stone to flatten most of my waterstones (Shaptons, Bester, Sigma).

That was too fine for the #120 Shapton, so one of my plate glass strips got reassigned from my ScarySharp days. With some #36 SiC grains from Stu, it worked a treat.

Yes it gets abraded and having only used it once so far I'm open on the matter of whether it will get dished in time. There are reasons to think not, since the abrasive grains move around - this is lapping strictly defined (an abrasive medium between two surfaces).

I've done of lot of flattening of chisel and plane iron backs and plane soles using W&D on plate glass. In only one case did I get an acceptable result easily; I was following the recipe for plane soles but sure got a shock when finally applied a quality straight edge to the work I'd done.

So this is what I've learned and picked up from experts about W&D for this purpose, and by extension some of these limitations will apply to flattening waterstones.

1. W&D sheets use SiC which breaks down quickly; with lapping, the edges of the piece get more exposure to fresh abrasive than the middle. So convexity is the likeliest consequence.

2. W&D sheets use grains that are not micron graded; so a nominal #120 will have grain sizes at least 25% larger and smaller.

3. W&D sheets vary a lot in quality, partic bond. The stuff readily available where I live sheds grains like a bad scalp sheds dandruff.

4. 2 and 3 are not necessarily a prob at the shaping part of the process (lapping, bevel forming) but can easily wreck a polish at the finer end. And, you don't want rogue grains of SiC embedding in your fine costly waterstone!

What happens with loose grains on glass is that they move around so diff size particles get mixed up. Stu reckons that they 'peck' at the stone.

When the stone moves across one, it's not held by a bond and pushed into the surface; just to shear and embed.

Anyway, that's my one guilder's worth ;-} The more I learn the more I realise how much remains to be learned.

rsser,

point1: If you flatten your stones frequently, I don't think
this is a problem at all. If you wait untill your stone has clearly
dished and it takes a long time to flatten it, then this might indeed
make things worse. BUT, usually waterstones are worn in the middle,
concave, so having more particles at the edges would actually be better.

point2: as you wrote, I don't think this will be a problem, certainly not
for waterstones.

point 3: I don't think one needs to buy the best wd paper. Just don't buy poor quality paper. Try a few and check which one you like. I buy not so
expensive wd(black colour 180grit) paper and it works fine. I am sure the more expensive sandingpapers would work even better.

point 4 is true. You don't want SiC embedding in your fine waterstone, but that is also the case if you would flatten your waterstone with loose grit
on a glass plate.

Flattening a plane sole on floatglass, I think will only work(not perfect!)
if you get19-25mm thick floatglass. 20 mm thick floatglass is not two times
as stiff as 10mm glass, but eight times as stiff I have been told.
So if you get a deflection of 0.01 with 10mm glass, you get 0.00125
deflection with 20mm thick glass.

We both know that scraping the sole flat is far more accurate, but
also a PITA. I am still trying to learn this. I see you have tried it
as well, but had to stop because of some healthy issues. I hope
you regain good health to start doing it again.

I am no expert at all, but my experience with flattening waterstones
on floatglass with WD paper have been really good.

Sazman

LOL.

Diff strokes for diff folks.

Most of my flattening is of bench chisels and plane irons. Usu about 25mm from the tip and with the irons widths up to 60mm.

There, as you go up through the grits, you soon see what's not been flattened or at least the inconsistency between grits or sheet coating thicknesses. I did my 'apprenticeship' on ScarySharp, disliked the results and stumped up for diamond stones. Even there (1 thou variation advertised) there's enough inconsistency of flatness to spoil your afternoon. And a coarse grit quality stone doesn't last that long.

Sure, if money were no object, I'd lay these stones in by the dozen.

So water or ceramic stones are better value but have to be maintained.

And lapping is a really good test of your maintenance skills!

Yes, you can use by way of a cheat a less than flat waterstone. I confess to doing most of the lapping work on the stone side but as I go up through the grits do some finishing strokes creeping up to the stone centre. Kindof like Charlesworth's ruler trick.

And in respect of lapping, I'm puzzled there's so few posts compared with bevel maintenance.

You need a flat and polished face on both of those that intersect to make a fine edge.

Good luck with your plane sole scraping Sazman. Wish I'd got that far. But I've just been rehabbing tools for fun. The little flatwork I do, I reach for the V. planes whose blades come already lapped }

Originally Posted by rsser

LOL.

Diff strokes for diff folks.

Most of my flattening is of bench chisels and plane irons. Usu about 25mm from the tip and with the irons widths up to 60mm.

There, as you go up through the grits, you soon see what's not been flattened or at least the inconsistency between grits or sheet coating thicknesses. I did my 'apprenticeship' on ScarySharp, disliked the results and stumped up for diamond stones. Even there (1 thou variation advertised) there's enough inconsistency of flatness to spoil your afternoon. And a coarse grit quality stone doesn't last that long.

Sure, if money were no object, I'd lay these stones in by the dozen.

So water or ceramic stones are better value but have to be maintained.

And lapping is a really good test of your maintenance skills!

Yes, you can use by way of a cheat a less than flat waterstone. I confess to doing most of the lapping work on the stone side but as I go up through the grits do some finishing strokes creeping up to the stone centre. Kindof like Charlesworth's ruler trick.

And in respect of lapping, I'm puzzled there's so few posts compared with bevel maintenance.

You need a flat and polished face on both of those that intersect to make a fine edge.

Good luck with your plane sole scraping Sazman. Wish I'd got that far. But I've just been rehabbing tools for fun. The little flatwork I do, I reach for the V. planes whose blades come already lapped }

rsser, I haven't used the scary sharp technique, so I'll take your
word about its issues.

Diamond stones are nice, but expensive and they don't last
that long when used frequently. Some seem to last, but the
performance becomes much less.

rsser, I am considering buying 3 1000 grit ceramic stones which
can be used to lap each other. With 3 stones lapping
each other one can achieve perfect flatness.

Then I use one of these to sharpen, another one to flatten
my finer stones.

This way, no need for diamond stones or wd sanding paper.
I am pretty certain that those 3 stones will last me a lifetime
since I do woodworking only as a hobby at the moment.

the 3 stones will cost me about 100 euro's, but a big diamond
stone costs the same and only lasts about a few years at best
and does not give you perfect flatness.

Not that I need perfect flatness since I sharpen freehand.

Sazman

Originally Posted by Mr Brush

Any coarse diamond plate bigger than your stone (I use the 10" DuoSharp) will do a fantastic job of keeping things flat. For some reason I get better results bringing the plate to the stone, rather than picking the stone up and rubbing it on the plate?

Yeah, I like the 10" Duosharp too. The perforations hold a good deal of the muck. But mostly use an 8" Diasharp Coarse that's lost its edge with steel direct.

I cross hatch the ceramic stone with pencil marks and then go for it.

But have the stone in a rubber footed clamp holder on the bench and then apply the Diasharp to it. Takes very little time.

Ern - hopefully my Sigma #120 + SiC grit should show up this week (it's in the post).

Lots of major bevel grinding to do here......

If it works as well as I hope, the Extra Coarse/Coarse DuoSharp can be put aside for stone flattening, rather than doing battle with M2 blades !

Sazman, seems we posted at the same time.

Yes, I've been following the other thread with interest re what you want to do.

With my kit, I've not found soaking and spraying to make too much mess on the bench in the workshop.

The only 'soaker' I have is the Bester #1000 which works well for me (mostly high carbon steel but there's been some A2 and some minor 2ndary bevel grinding of HSS). Just maybe 5 mins or so in water and then onto a stone holder. I put a layer or two of kitchen paper underneath it to soak up drops and overspray from the spray bottle and keep enough moisture there to make a medium thick slurry.

I then go to a Shapton #4000 Glass stone which clogs and sticks like an adolescent boy's first shave, and then to a Sigma Power #8000 which works a treat and needs just a spritz or two of water.

Then, for knives only, a natural finishing stone or Shapton #1200 - but both of these are new in the kit and it's too early to make judgements.

Well Mr B, it seems Helmut's M2 plane irons won't need lapping .... but we'll see!

Bevels will go on your grinder no trouble.

So hopefully just some polishing of the M2 backs.