Father and Son - IT and LN dovetail saws

**derekcohen** · 13th August 2006, 01:57 AM

As I understand it, in response to a growing demand for a quality dovetail saw in the mid 1990s, Pete Taran and Patrick Leach started Independence Tools to market one based on a 1830s English design. They considered this design to epitomize the perfect dovetail saw. Eventually the business was run by Pete Taran alone, and later sold to Lie Nielsen, who continue to sell this dovetail saw today.

Before IT was sold to LN, several hundred saws were built and sold. Every now-and-then one comes up for sale on eBay and generally sells for considerably more than the LN version that replaced it. About a month ago I won an unused Independence saw, and the gloat is that it was for less than a new LN.

Actually this is only half the gloat. You see, since the seller lived in the USA, I had the saw shipped directly to Mike Wenzloff.

I have owned the LN version of the Independence dovetail saw for the past few years. It does not get as much use as I hoped it would since it has been a little less than ideal in my experience. Now don’t misunderstand me – the LN is a fabulous saw, and I return to it more and more, and each time I do it seems to get better. It is just that I find it difficult to start a cut (no matter how I change the way in which I use it). The LN will “hop” a little, and the danger then is that I lose the line. I have another dovetail saw, a vintage $10 John Cotterill, which like the LN is sharpened 15 tpi rip with minimal set but moderate rake (sharpening and setting done by myself). This cuts slower but with greater ease and reliability than the LN. All who have used this saw really like using it. What I really want is a saw that looks like the LN and cuts like the JC.

The teeth on the LN are filed with zero rake for an aggressive cut. I asked Mike to work his magic on the IT. Shortly after receiving the saw Mike emailed me, “I don't think this saw has ever sawn wood, so they are well shaped and set. But the rake is about 4 degrees or less. Much too little for your woods. I figure I'll add 2-4 degrees of fleam, try it on Bloodwood, Lyptus and Jatoba. If it starts OK, then stop there. If not, add a little rake. All in all, if the fleam makes it easier to start then the impact on the usable depth simply wouldn't be able to be measured”.

I picked up the saw at the Post Office this morning on the way to the Perth Wood Show. Over at the Fine Woodworking stand (a woodworking group I am a member of), I was able to try it out alongside a demonstration of saw sharpening (being run by a friend, who co-opted me into the demo). The demonstrator had his LN Independence on hand, and so I was able to try them out together. Well, I was impressed! The Independence cut more smoothly than the LN and there was no hint of grabbing on the piece of hardwood I was given (not sure what it was).

Back home I had a chance to do a short comparison with my LN, this time on Jarrah. How did the IT fare? The LN cuts well but it will grab at times (without warning). This new Independence is smooth and never grabbed, yet appears to cut as quickly/aggressively as the LN.

The two saws are very similar on a physical level, but there are differences.

<center> <div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/LN%20vs%20Independence/Independence-LN.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br /></center>

<I>LN on top, IT at the bottom</I>

Both blades are 9” long. Both have Curly Maple totes. Both are filed 15 tpi rip.

<center> <div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/LN%20vs%20Independence/Independence-LNsizes.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br /></center>

Side-by-side it is very evident which is which. The LN has the more polished, better finished woodwork. However it looks machined, whereas the IT has a softer and rounded profile, one that looks Made by Hand.

<center> <div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/LN%20vs%20Independence/Independence-LNtotes1.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br /></center>

<center> <div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/LN%20vs%20Independence/Independence-LNtotes2.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br /></center>

<I> IT at left, LN at right</I>

Saw nuts:

<center> <div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/LN%20vs%20Independence/Independence-LNnuts.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br /></center>

So how do they compare in the hand? The totes feel quite different. The IT is softer, rounder than the LN but it is also thinner. The IT is 22 mm thick vs the LN at 23.5 mm. Across the center of the tote the IT is 33 mm thick while the LN is 36mm. The LN feels more substantial while the IT molds into the palm. I can see that this would polarize users – some will prefer the LN while others will prefer the IT. I need more time to decide.

Regards from Perth

Derek

**ian** · 13th August 2006, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by derekcohen

I asked Mike to work his magic on the IT. Shortly after receiving the saw Mike emailed me, “I don't think this saw has ever sawn wood, so they are well shaped and set. But the rake is about 4 degrees or less. Much too little for your woods. I figure I'll add 2-4 degrees of fleam, try it on Bloodwood, Lyptus and Jatoba. If it starts OK, then stop there. If not, add a little rake. All in all, if the fleam makes it easier to start then the impact on the usable depth simply wouldn't be able to be measured”.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Please enlighten me, what's "fleam" ?

ian

**Farm boy** · 13th August 2006, 03:13 AM

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/glossary.html

ian
try this link it means the angle of the teeth
cheers
greg

**MikeW** · 13th August 2006, 03:15 AM

Hi Ian,

Fleam is the angle of the face of a tooth. Looking down on a saw's toothline, it is the bevel angle of the tooth. So properly speaking, a rip tooth is filed straight across the saw plate. A cross cut is filed so each tooth is alternately beveled one to the right, next to the left, and so on.

Viewed from the side, the amount a tooth leans back [or forward in a pull-saw] is called rake.

So adding a little fleam/bevel angle to a rip tooth but keeping the rake to near zero can make the saw start smoothly as each tooth is slicing the wood a little verses acting like a chisel. By keeping the rake to near zero, there is little trade-off with how fast it cuts. But there is always a trade-off.

The fleam angle needs to be consistently and alternatingly from side to side, every other tooth, else the saw will cut off-line.

For pictures--they are worth a thousand words, go to:
http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html

Take care, Mike

**MikeW** · 13th August 2006, 03:17 AM

What kind words, Derek. Thank you.

It was a pleasure to have that saw here. It really is a testament to the evolution from the beginnings to the present LN.

Take care, Mike

**ian** · 13th August 2006, 03:21 AM

Greg and Mike

thanks very much

**Mirboo** · 13th August 2006, 09:35 AM

Great post Derek. Thanks.

I have an un-Wenzloff'd LN dovetail saw so I was interested to read how the changes Mike made altered the performance. I'll be interested to hear how you rate the 2 saws once you've used them for a bit.

**scooter** · 13th August 2006, 10:44 PM

Thanks for this thread Derek.

So, in a nutshell, what is the rake & fleam of the IT saw now? Filed 15tpi rip, did it end up at the 4-ish deg rake & 2-4 deg fleam you mentioned?

I would like to learn from your experience with these saws to know what to aim for when filing a secondhand Pax I snagged a while back.

Cheers................Sean

**Groggy** · 13th August 2006, 11:26 PM

A great read, I love to know the history of tools.

**scooter** · 17th August 2006, 01:24 AM

*bump*

Derek, per my post above, is 4 deg rake & 2-4ish deg fleam what the saw is now?

Thanks, & cheers................Sean

**derekcohen** · 17th August 2006, 01:39 AM

Hi Sean

Here is Mike's response to a similar question on another forum:

Mainly, for a rip saw with a thin sawplate, one can get away with a lot. there's simply less material to push through the kerf.

I know what I shot for on Derek's IT--but I have no idea if I made those figures. The saw was roughly 4 degrees of rake and zero fleam angle, as is customary on the saw. When one is sawing the nasty timbers Derek uses, a little fleam angle--the angle a tooth is beveled like a cross cut--will do two things.

One, it will make the saw easier to start. Two, it makes the saw easier to start. Ok, I only had one point. By keeping the rake near the 4 degree area and adding a skosh of fleam, it provided a good fast cut in similar woods I had on hand. But like I mentioned, I have no idea how much rake I altered it, nor how much fleam angle was added. I sharpen by hand mostly, and so I am not too concerned.

Take care, Mike

Regards from Perth

Derek

**scooter** · 17th August 2006, 11:06 PM

Goodonya, thanks Derek.

I decided that as the teeth were a mess, I got a local sharpening service to recut/sharpen the teeth. He didn't reckon he could set his machine to allow a small degree of fleam, so I've just got him sharpening it 15tpi rip, 8 degrees rake and zero fleam.

I'm fairly inexperienced with using handsaws with any degree of precision, so thought I'd initially go for the 8 degrees which seemed to be recommended on a few sites. I figure I'll see how this goes with a view to hand sharpening it next time & modify it then if wanted. I found the sharpening info on Leif's site (sp? Nordic whatsit) useful.

Thanks for the info though, goes in the memory bank.

Cheers................Sean

**MikeW** · 18th August 2006, 06:10 AM

Hi Sean--Looks I've been outed for not really knowing what I did [g]<G>. The reason is because of doing it by hand. If each and every tooth was looked at and measured I'm quite sure there would be variance.

The 8 degrees should help smooth out the starting of the cut. Once you are in it, say just below the tooth gullets, you can start sawing a little harder if you want.

In sharpening, there is always a trade-off between agressiveness and smoothness, speed and finish left behind. If you find the smoothness starting or the agressiveness/lack thereof isn't to your liking, drop me an email and we can get you sorted out.

Take care, Mike

**scooter** · 18th August 2006, 09:14 PM

Thanks for your interest, Mike, I enjoy reading your stuff and looking at the beautiful saws you make.

I'm really looking forward to getting my saw back from the sharpeners & making a few cuts. He does good work with router bits so here's hoping he's as good with handsaws

To date I've only used a modern hardpoint crosscut tenon saw and a dozuki so should be interesting !

Thanks for your offer of help, noted

Cheers..................Sean

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