Thread: Hands V Machinery

I couldn't have put it better, Derek.

The "swiiiishhh" of a plane as it take off a half of a poofteenth of a whisker to reach that final "just right" fit, or the "snick' sound of a chisel setting that D/T joint just so - not that I get it very often - is so very satisfying.

If I were trying to make a living from woodwork, that I suppose that it would be a very differnt story.

Cheers!

Gidday

Being able to use handtools & handheld powertools well is a real joy................being able to replicate or better a job done with a handheld powertool with traditional handheld tools is Nirvana!!!!!!

Theres nothing like being able to kick back after completing a piece ...............and saying wow & I did it all by hand!!!!!

............Getting in the zone!.......serenity..........at one with the process!!!......however you put it FOR YOU...... a really well made sharp handtool can take you there!!!!

theres something special; something mystic........something primal about it!!!!

Regards Lou

I'm very much with Derek on this one. I enjoy doing things by hand, and I reckon most joints can be done as quickly by hand as by machine. But, why would I hand plane 3mm off a board when I can run it through the thicknesser, or hand rip a board when I can run it over the TS.
Definitely horses for courses.

I go with Termite , if I'm making something for myself or my family then hand tools where ever practical .
But if its a love job or for money then time is money
Once did 50 picture frames for an exhibition in 4 days
and took 1 day for one for the shimbo using a stanley 55 for the profile

Nothing like the feel of the plane or the satisfaction of the end result of doing it by hand unless its the sence of power when burning electrons

Horses for courses



Useless infomation for the day


Man who farts in church sit in his own pew.

I reckon both are feasable, I have all machines but still use a 4 1/2 1970's stanley to flatten off glued up panels. I dont think they compete but rather compliment each other... if you were to cut a single M&T joint hand tools are faster but if you were to cut 20 the set up time on the machine is time saved in the long run.

Ok.
Where does wood turning fit in.
Power operated lathe.
Hand held tools.

Stuffed if I am going to use a treddle lathe.
How to cut blanks with out a chain saw and band saw.
Axe, Adz? :eek:

Originally Posted by DavidG

Ok.
How to cut blanks with out a chain saw and band saw.
Axe, Adz? :eek:

A little thing called a rip saw followed by determined application of a good ole crosscut saw should see you right there David.
(probably right into the loony bin that is)

For money I make picture frames as an adjunct to my photo studio. The workshop is a place of solace for me. Working with my hands and making something nice is really satisfying.

I have an ML 392. For thicknessing and jointing it is great however I do see wave marks on the finished job. I have only just got the machine but I think the best thing to do is to cut close to size on the table saw joint and thickness and then have a run over the top with a plane to get it right. Hand planing takes too long. I have to get work out the door. It doesn't have to be completely perfect.

Mind you I cut the mitres on a mitre saw, but I am thinking about setting up a shooting board just to finish the mitres spot on. Mind you I am also thinking about making a jig that I can use to run moulding through to make half lap mitres with a dado blade. They are all tools and I think you should choose them as is suitable to the work you are doing.

I have done Tenons with the Dado and it is great how quickly you can knock a good one out. Rout most of the Mortise and with a little chiselling you are there. Might be done better but you have to get work out the door.

Studley

I don't have any machinery at all, I never will.
Wood comes from the earth, so should we and our tools. What's the point in using a machine, or a machine made tool, to work a humble substance like wood?

I'm quite happy with hand tools and I realise that you have to "treat them right". Lots of folks have a $2000 set of chisels, like me, but they treat them with kid gloves, when they ought to be used everyday, handled, smacked with a mallet and sharpened again. Dedicated storage is common for hand tools not so commonly used? Powertools, on the other hand, I have noticed to be used well, if not abused.

Hand tools are convient and as mobile as your equal arm permits. You can't take a toolbox of machinery and an infinite power cord with you when you go for a sail........ or to the next amusement wherever that may be.

All my tools are forged by hand, over coal or charcoal, and have employed no machinery in their production. However, the metals these tools are composed of have obviously been smelted in large industry. This I feel isn't very ethical at all, and certainly not indicative of sustainability or hollistic craftsmanship.
The tools I have work well but one can make their own tools just as well. I now spend half my woodworking time building masonry forges, bellows etc and making charcoal. I intend making a small backyard bloomery in the next few weeks, and smelting some "real" iron and steel.

I think perhaps I've digressed as usual.

I get really confused when you guys are posting threads about machinery and powers tools. I try to keep up but I get lost amongst the "Bosch, model 12, series 7" whoosywhatsit, and this "Triton" thing, which I thought was a hybrid motorcycle, a Norton chassis with a Trumpy engine!!

I went to the Newcastle Wood Show yesterday and wow.... way too much for the eyeball, and lots of noise to boot.
I saw this maniac cutting up 4x1's with a chainsaw!!!!
We covered our ears and my baby son swallowed a whole lot of blue smoke. By the time this guy got on the gloves, helmet, picked up and primed this evil contraption, my wife could have finished the job with a bread knife.
There was no need to resort to this kind of behaviour, it's not decent in any respect.
Where's the benefit in something that costs more to buy, and run, is heavier, far less precise and one has to get dressed for the job.

Reading this thread was, coincidentally, hot on the heels of viewing another thread on injuries, "How many fingers have you got?", or something to that effect. I think nearly all the injuries were from tables saws, routers and other nasty bities. I may have surrendered myself to labour, but I have certainly reduced the chance of loosing a finger.

Some of you fellas seem pretty keen on the old Stanley planes, why? and what do you think of the new Lie Neilsons?
I have a brand new Lie Neilson low angle block plane and low angle jack plane and both need a new home, for I have used them once, and I've had them a whole year. I have a few planes but all I ever reach for are the wooden ones, because they sing to me, I can feel them cutting. Sure they get all razzed up on the bottom, but they're tools. Bit of a scrape and some linseed oil always puts it right.
I was speaking to some jerk at an antique shop who had a stanley number 2 in the cabinet for $1200. They are rare YES, brilliant and fantastic NO, so where is the justification in buying something slightly useful, with a heap of unwanted che, for a ridiculous price. These material objects harbour no prestige in their heritage, just some folks attribute sentiment to them as they have occured in time as all has happened before.
What void in their spirit are they attempting to patch by valuing such things?
I just can't see any sense in these metal ones.
They are not as durable, can rust and sieze, have a supurfluous amount of inertia, are more time consuming to maintain, adjust/sharpen, and you can't modify the sole for a peculiar task.
Why have a metal plane when one can have a wooden one?
The simplest tools are the best tools, no two ways about it!!!

I have carpenters axes, slicks, a drawknife and an adze. You can do just about anything with these. The other day, making sawhorses, I hewed a huge "T" halving joint with my adze alone and did the shoulders with an axe and the results were perfect. It looked machined and finished with a cabinet scraper, there can hardly be a greater satisfaction than this.
I use no scews or glue, I prefer mechanical fits, big wedges and tenons. Let the wood hold itself together... right?? All those joints look kinda honest.
After all, isn't woodworking about exploiting the beauty, strength, reliability and longevity of the most amazing composite in existance?

Sell the router and table saw......... the cash would be better spent on a new pair of boots and a big chunk of Gidgee.

Adam

Whatever gets the job done.

But, if I don't have the tool, I have a better chance of making a hand tool than building a power tool.

Some examples where I went one way, but I don't know how you switch from dark to light or vice-versa for them.

Take a hair off and true the wooden skate of of a dado plane? Couple swipes on the woody jointer fixed it.

A 3' x 5' oak table top, flattened with a scrub plane, then jointer, then smoother. Scraped the difficult parts.

Cut some stock (ebony) for marking tools dead on off the tablesaw. A light touch up and tweak and call them good. (within 0.02mm anyway). Stress the word light.

re-saw some 7" wide planks down the middle, within 5 minutes, no sweat.

Clean up an edge profile without obliterating it.

Clean up angry grain while on autopilot.


To me, somethings just scream handtools, while others beg for a powered solution. Completely ignoring one option simply because it doesn't fit an idealogy doesn't make much sense to me.

But that's just me. And I am on a tool making kick right now, none of them powered.

Yet.

Originally Posted by Derek

I use powertools ... when I am fatigued.

Tsk tsk

aeg20boat, that's one hell of an obsession you have there.

Originally Posted by aeg20boat

I don't have any machinery at all, I never will.
Wood comes from the earth, so should we and our tools. What's the point in using a machine, or a machine made tool, to work a humble substance like wood?

Well if you look at this logically machinery also comes from the earth, everything we have comes from it. What is the difference between a steel hand saw and a table saw in this respect. You could use a wooden saw I suppose, must be very hard wood though.

I've read everyones thoughts and I remain baffled at some of the approaches.
For some I realise that the problem is where to stop. But most can't evaluate the whole circumstance, they can't fathom the conception of a singular tool, can't understand its significance. They can't begin but are happy at the end and have no knowledge of what has transpired on this here planet to make it such a shambles.

Yes, if our ancestors had machinery they would have used it. Yes, they were limited by their technology. Yes, they are no different to modern man in their sick obsessions for greed and conquering, to the destruction of all things intended.

Primitive man was a meglomaniac just like most of you, and had not the vision to judge his effects on the whole, or the heart to resist his temptations for success. He was forced into a state of labour. He was though, at heart, quite a lethargic scumbag, who has and still does prove himself the simplest of all creatures, the only one who is content destroying the world he lives in.

I use hand tools because, when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, I am rather vunerable and useless. I make up for the difference and that is where I stop. I use hand tools not to indulge in a quaint artform but because anything made by machine has been made by machine, and you can't be proud of something you haven't made. Pride comes from overcoming obstacles, nature obstacles.

How can you understand what I'm talking about if you have a fibreglass boat with a motor, and you think that's fishing. Or if your concept of hunting is blowing the head of some creature with an alloy and plastic bang pipe made by a foriegn industry. Or if you are enthralled and captivated by sitting on your ****, pointing and pressing, driving a motor car and claiming it fun.

I suppose some can keep surviving in an artificial world, but that dosen't make your existance legitimate. Do you really deserve to be alive. The starting point is recognising the problem and having some spine.

Fun for me is a wake up call, I most enjoy being humiliated by mother nature by immersing myself in the world that is possible, without the corruption of community etc.

Two humans walk naked, possesionless and isolated from one another into the bush. Only one type of human proves himself equal, only one type of person emerges clothed, fed and with a tool in his hands. He is also cold, fatigued and maybe in pain but he smiles a worthwhile smile. The other becomes the proper victum of evolution; Let his genes decompose in the earth OR let him live another day to enjoy driving a japanese car, go shopping and get his hair done.

Which type of human are you? have you tried this like me?

N.B. Bleeding and going hungry are not things to be scared of, on the contrary they are feelings to be relished when neccessary.

OK, I up my "one hell of an obsession you have there" to "what a load of bollocks". Bit early in the morning to be smoking isn't it?

So, how did you post this message, or do computers get a special exemption from your no machine policy?