Thread: hazards of cutting mdf

Can't shed any light as to why but the Mitre10 in Warrnambool also won't cut MDF any more.
Chris

I think there was a post a week or thee ago on rec.woodworking on this topic and the consensus was that MDF dust was pretty nasty!

Can't shed any more light on it sorry, but I'd be taking all the normal dust precautions when cutting it.

Apart from the fine dust produced when cutting MDF, I remember reading somewhere that the is a HUGE range of chemicals used in the manufacture of MDF.

One substance that I remember seeing was formaldahyde(?),the stuff they use to preserve you when you go to that great workshop in the sky!..

I can understand Bunnings stand on the matter, adn I try and use a dust mask and goggles whenever I cut the stuff.

Kev

I believe the reason for the stance timber retailers are taking is one of simply controlling risk. If there is a potential health risk to employees this is one way of reducing that risk and the potential litigation that would ensue if MDF dust proves to be a health hazard.

As for the level of hazard, one will have to make that conclusion based on the available data. The following three web sites address the issue. Draw your own conclusions.
http://www.deconsolutions.com/DFW/MSDS%20Summary.pdf http://www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/pdf/woodn16.pdf http://www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/pdf/woodn16.pdf

There are many more sites - do a search under mdf health hazards.



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Woodchuck Canuck
Good luck is the residue of good planning!

you'd think they have some notice on MDF if it was such a health risk. I had some spare lying around so I made a basket out of it on the scrollsaw. A lady in my scrollsaw group went on at me for not using a mask when cutting it. Atleast now I should have some nicely preserved lungs

Guess im a bit of a dumb bunny, I didnt know there were any more risks from its dust than normal wood or ply .. guess I should use a mask anyway, even though they are annoying to use. I mostly use ply for my scrollwork anyway

Brett

[This message has been edited by oges (edited 04 February 2003).]

Below is the first sentance on Woodworking Australia's BADWOODS page

In Australia all wood dust is now classified as carcinogenic (liable to cause cancer)

You should note the words ALL WOOD DUST and should also realize that the carcinogenic part is a long term problem. There are many more potentially diabolical, immediate dangers.

Word of warning when using a Racal or other resperator type mask with MDF. Unless you have a charcoal filter installed you could be doing more harm than good, as the fumes can easily be picked up by the fan and concentrated into the mask.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil

No need to dance around it and poke it with sticks like new age hippies.

Research has shown that in occupational terms MDF dust is no more dangerous than hard wood and softwood dusts. MDF exposure standards are taken as the maximum exposure to hardwood dust and the maximum exposure to formaldehyde. Yes it contains resins and some manufacturers use formaldehyde. To overcome this manufacturers test for emissions and if too high (above the exposure standard) the product/batch is left to further cure before retesting. This all occurs before the product leaves the manufacturer, ensuring the safety of those down the supply chain.

Looking at it from a different angle some people are more susceptible to certain substances than others. With some substances accumulation from frequent exposure can cause sensitisation. An example is western red cedar and CCA treated pine. Some people show no signs/symptoms of ill health effects when cutting these products. At the other extreme some people would have a near death experience working these timbers.

What is known though is that companies from time to time will have ill thought and often misconceived policies – aka “ultra conservative”. Others will flout laws and defy what you and I might agree as ‘common sense’.

In reference to aforementioned retailer it is probably a straightforward case of financial and risk management backed up by some law graduate ‘protecting the corporate image’.

As oges experienced, most people think this is pretty nasty stuff because their taxi drivers son in law said that he once met a person at his scroll saw workshop who said cutting it is banned .......

PS

After re-reading the original question:

Yes similar probelms exist with other particle boards - i.e. hard board flooring, substrates for laminates, high density fibre board etc. A promising sign is that some manufacturers in australia are using alterative resins that do not pose the hazards of formaldehyde.

As for relative toxicity - this is an in depth topic in itself.
http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/formaldehyde/

[This message has been edited by Eastie (edited 04 February 2003).]

From what I've read, the major problem with MDF is that it the dust particles are very small - and smaller particles get deeper into the lungs and cause more damage as a result.

Good news in that respect is that good dust extraction is better at picking up small dust particles than large.

Personally I don't use a dust mask, but I use good dust extraction. I'm not breathing dust when I'm on the saw, though when cutting melamine I wear a full face mask - hate getting hit in the face with sharp little pieces.

I worked for a shopfitting outfit for a year or so. They cut, routed & drilled MDF all day every day. Dust extraction was less than ideal. Most of the guys in the workshop were just fine after years of it, but one guy got a bad case of dermatitis.

I guess it's like a lot of things - most people are fine, but if it affects you in any way badly, protect yourself fully. Either way, at least use decent dust extraction.

They may have been fine yes, in the short term...the problem is the long term effects that don't become apparent until later on!

Hey, don't get me wrong - I'm not saying don't worry about it at all. Let's face it though, we're mostly weekend warriors here and a few hours at most of working with MDF a week, assuming decent dust extraction and the basic precautions taken I'll bet is a lot less harmful than many things we're exposed to all day every day - like city polution.

That outfit has now moved to CNC machining of most parts, and installed better dust extraction. They also now use respirators when hand sanding etc.

I can guarantee though that my home workshop that I only play in on weekends is still a better environment with good dust extraction and an air cleaner than the vast majority of commercial shops. And I would have done that health risk or not - because it makes a great hobby a lot more pleasant.

One thing I'm not going to do is panic about the potential problems. Life's too bloody short - and I'm a hell of a lot more likely to die driving to work every day.

All I'm saying is take the sensible precautions at the very least. If you come out of your workshop with a nose full of dust and feeling unpleasant, or if you suffer any ill effects at all, you obviously should do something about it.

Well said.

regarding the original post
why wont bunnies ect cut mdf.
Their insurer probably wont let them.

In the last few months I have had several duscussions with a number of my corporate customers & my insurance brokers.

Seem that the all insurers have had a colective spasim and got fussy about all sorts of ordinary things and declared them HIDEOUS RISKS as a result many big corporate businesses are issuing workplace health & safety orders that are far beyond the considered norm and current legeslation.

Welcome to the insurance driven world!!!!

The health aspect is a very interesting topic, due to the potential for life changing consequences to our health and way of life, or of dieing, in the distant future.

One of the big unknowns and debated points is how much exposure is too much? I saw a report on the ABC a couple of weeks ago regarding Mesothelioma, the cancer that can result from exposure to asbestos particles. It is a very nasty way to slowly die, continually struggling for air. One sufferer related his only exposure to asbestos which was a 3 day period some two or three decades ago, when he built a cubby for his kids.

Wood dust is not asbestos, but 20 years ago nobody would have thought casual exposure to asbestos could yield the result it has for this man. So who knows what we will find out in the future about MDF and other wood? I do everything possible to avoid ANY exposure.

I think anybody who does not wear a facial mask that will filter MDF and other particles is taking a very serious gamble. I know plenty will disagree and I sincerely hope they are proved correct in 20 years!

Regards,
Geordie at Mik International

By the late 1930’s doctors had already associated asbestos with unusual mortality rates amongst certain industries. Despite this the asbestos boom continued, only to hit a speed hump in the 1960’s when further studies conclusively showed that very low levels of exposure were far more hazardous than first thought. The Australian government at the time was made well aware of this yet asbestos products continued to be manufactured through to the 80’s. There are still brake linings in use that contain asbestos fibres.

As I’ve said above, in “workplace” terms there are “exposure standard” which relate to maximum allowable exposure to substances over an eight-hour day that the experts say will not adversely affect the health of employees in these environments. These standards are formed by historical medical records, autopsy data, animal experiments and the like. They are also compared with normal atmospheric exposure – such as naturally occurring atmospheric concentrations of formaldehyde.

They are designed to protect employees however they also protect employers from frivolous litigation and industrial action.

Quite often the balance of safety is questioned as to whether it is biased towards employer or employee?

Asbestos is a good example. Unions and lobby groups often push the “1 fibre theory” whereby the detection of a single asbestos fibre is too much of a risk and workplace activities should cease until remedied. Studies show us that the chance of a person developing asbestos related disease from exposure to a single fibre is so remote that remedial action is not warranted. In fact our exposure standard of 0.1 fibre “per millilitre of air” (as sampled through a pump) allows much more than 1 fibre. Some people may suffer ill effects but the great majority won’t. The evidence is in the fact that not all elderly people suffer from asbestos disease yet the greater majority have been exposed through nothing more sinister than standing on the corner of an intersection breathing in fibres that escape from brake linings.

With timber we have known for a similar time the problems it has presented to timber workers. There were signs of ill health recorded by doctors around the time of WW1 relating to nasal disorders, however not much was done. With the advent of powered tools and manufactured timber products the problem skyrocketed and the research stood still. Slowly research continues in this area and certain things do remain unanswered.

More recent studies have examined the association of nasal symptoms and diseases with wood dust exposure and lifestyle variables - cigarette smoking, alcohol use, overweight, physical inactivity, and stress. Smoking and excessive alcohol abuse both stood out as shortening your odds of encountering grief with wood dust issues.
With MDF there is no proof to date showing it acts as a catalyst and worsens the risks. One reason for the relatively slow research is the understanding that in the global sense there are much worse and pressing things that need to be addressed and thus the money flows in these directions.

In fifty years time more may be understood about exposures to manufactured particle products and associated resins but until that day there is only speculation.

There are many unknowns and many risks in life. No matter the activity or situation you should protect yourself and seek advise on how best to do this.




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"A good scare is worth more than good advice"