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  1. #16
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    Brushless tools are getting better, but still can't match the torque output of brushed motors.

    In high torque (i.e. high current drain) applications, tools like cordless saws, grinders and HD drills, brushed motors (especially the 4 pole variety) still comprehensively outperform the newer brushless tech.

    In low torque applications: jigsaws, SDS hammers, impact drivers & lower powered drills, brushless motors outperform & outlast brushed motors.

    I think Makita's market dominance of trade tools seems to have slipped a bit of late. They still have the most comprehensive cordless range & some of the hardest working tools available. But their tech. leadership, not to mention quality and reliability mantle has been stolen by some if not many competitors. Where's the 5ah batteries the others offer? Where's the 3 year warranty?

    Everyone seems to be treading on Makita's toes these days. Hell even Festo, with their ex-Protool heavy duty and Narex budget ranges are now marketing themselves as legit. trade tools.
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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratbag View Post

    I think Makita's ... Where's the 5ah batteries the others offer?
    http://www.makita.com.au/product-pag...li-ion-battery
    http://justtools.com.au/makita-18v-5...battery-bl1850

    Agree Makita have a large cordless range including gardening products. Also available at more than one chain of store but not available at Masters.

  4. #18
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    New 5.0ah Makita batteries? Not before time too. A lot of my former colleagues, dissatisfied with their Makita's battery performance (which tended to fail without warning) and charge life, got pretty frustrated & switched to other brands. Unless it's changed lately, Makita also had one of the poorest performing cordless grinders on the market: in fact verging on useless.

    Makita were once the innovators. First to market with new tools & battery platforms. First to apply brushless tech. Fastest Li-Ion charging performance too. But being first means that imitators can soon catch up & eventually overtake your performance. So instead of being the performance benchmark, Makita started looking a little second rate.

    Some switched to Hitachi-Koki, and some to Milwaukee. Can't say I was very impressed with either of these myself, but I always was pretty hard to please. My personal priorities were firstly for the best SDS mini-hammer and grinder performance. While I use other cordless tools, any drill will drill (provided it's fast enough - many aren't), impact driver will drive, torch will light & recipro. will cut. So super performance wasn't at the time a priority for me with these other tools.

    For me the obvious choice was Bosch. Best 18v SDS, and a grinder that wouldn't shut down as soon as it was loaded up. Metabo made a great grinder too, but their SDS was crap. As for the rest.... every other mnfr's SDS was way too big, heavy & bulky to use safely up a ladder single-handed. The Bosch was compact & light enough, but still packed enough but not too much punch. For me ergonomics & control are far more important than power. That's what 36v & mains tools are for anyway - bigger holes faster.

    Things are probably different now of course. There's new whizz-bang tools being released every few months by one manufacturer or another. Festo's new SDS cordless looks good but without a matching grinder its useless to me. Great new cordless saw too, but you'd have to be certifiable to take a $1000 cordless tool of any sort up a ladder.

    Please don't take this as any particular criticism or endorsement of any brand. We all have different priorities, and as it's been 3 years or so since my last cordless purchase any info I share is already 3 years out of date. As I said before, things move pretty fast in cordless tool development.
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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratbag View Post
    Brushless tech has advantages and disadvantages:


    But they AFAIK still can't better conventional brushed motors in terms of peak output power and torque.
    this is simply not true at all. A brushless DC motor will out perform a motor with brushes in both power and torque. Further more, the torque curve is far more linear across the speed range.

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pearo View Post
    this is simply not true at all. A brushless DC motor will out perform a motor with brushes in both power and torque. Further more, the torque curve is far more linear across the speed range.
    Pearo, you may very well be correct. As previously mentioned, my last cordless purchase (an urgently needed replacement for an existing tool under repair) was 3 years ago.

    Given your above statement is in direct contrast to my own experience, I thought it deserved further investigation.

    Manufacturers websites seem to be full of wild & spurious claims these days in relation to their cordless wares. Stupid & useless claims like "more power than corded", "world exclusive", and "best ever" are bandied about. Facts however remain elusive, despite these claims. It's extremely difficult to compare like with like, which is required to provide meaningful evidence one way or another.

    Mnfrs collectively talk up their latest & greatest, tempting us to either upgrade or better still defect to their brand. Marketing departments burn the midnight oil in an endless arms-race of hyperbole. To what end? To effectively confuse & bamboozle - even deceive - the unwitting consumer into making what the marketers consider the "right" decision.

    It's expensive too. One tool is say $500 give or take, but a completely new cordless platform could cost the tradesman or other consumer thousands. Add multiple extra batteries, a charger or 2, and 3 or 4 "skins" and it can get scary. Way too much money for ill considered decisions, the consequences of which we're stuck with for years to come!

    Then there's the personal priorities of the consumer. In my case I required a compact but powerful SDS and strong reliable grinder above all else. The only choice was Bosch for me. As these 2 tools suited my specific needs better than the rest, I needed to compromise elsewhere. Bosch drills aren't as good as Metabo's. The Bosch cordless jigsaw is a bit of a toy: the only heavy duty cordless jigsaws around are by Festo, Metabo and at last Makita. Their impact driver compares poorly with Makita's & Metabo's. Their recipro saw, whilst it cuts well has a hair-trigger, making it difficult to cut with any finesse.

    Then there's the ancillaries: batteries, chargers, accessories and how the complete kit works together. To transport & use, advantage Festo. Their boxes, sometimes used by others are the best. Smaller & less accommodating of parts & accessories than the Sortimo/Bosch L-boxx, they nevertheless just look, feel & last better.

    Note I haven't mentioned cordless circular saws yet. Every one I've tried is a joke. Festo's is apparently good, as is Mafell's and Hilti's: they're also hideously expensive. As previously stated, not the tools for trimming rafters and ridgeboards. These are all basically 36v tools: anything less is woeful. Having tried Bosch, Metabo, (both of which I once owned), Makita, Milwaukee & Hitachi-Koki 18v versions I can say with an element of certainty that they're collectively useless. At least my $200 36v Bosch, whilst still pretty gutless, has a rafter hook for security.

    Last year I was invited to a demo evening at a local retailer. Most offerings I ignored, but the newly released Metabo drill range was tempting: no less than 6 all-new 18v drills. Brushed & brushless, impact & non impact, quick release & fixed chuck. Being allowed to try them out, & compare them with the Bosch, Makita & Milwaukee drills that were also stocked was enlightening. The Metabos ate the others. In power, capacity & battery charge life. It was literally cheese & chalk. Even more enlightening was to compare like for like equivalent NEW models of brushed & brushless commutation. The brushless drills ran forever, at high speed in sheet steel with twist bits, in pine with spade bits, and in low gear driving long torx coach screws. But the 4 pole drills still performed better in the high drain applications. Augers in hardwood, big spade bits and holesaws, and driving larger coach screws.

    The specs say it all. 90 compared to 110 torques, and drilling capacities of 50mm & 65mm respectively. Big holes are MUCH more demanding on torque and current than they appear. Using simple schoolboy geometry, the cross sectional area drilling capabilities of the 4 pole brushed motors is an extra 65%! You could feel it too: those new drills had grunt! I was sorely tempted, but having invested so much already in a different brand's platform, it doesn't make sense to change.

    Which is an extremely round about and convoluted way of saying that you may very well be correct, and I am indeed (or as usual) talking out my derriere. Brushless motors drain the batteries less overall, require less frequent charging, less maintenance and don't get as hot when worked hard. I've had some of my Bosch drills too hot to handle at times.

    But I'm unconvinced. My own experience tells me that these 4 pole motors comprehensively outperform their brushless commutated alternatives. In the real world, in extreme conditions and under heavy loads, they drill bigger holes much faster than brushless drills can.
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  7. #21
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    Ratbag, I think you will find that a tool maybe under speced, or perhaps your tools with brushes have larger higher spec motors. Not sure what the reason is. But once you get away from the marketing drivel, I assure you that a BLDC (Brushless DC) motor will outperform anything else. Think of it this way, a motor with brushes is like a car with a carbie. BLDC is like fuel injection. Because the motor is being precisily controlled with a computer, you have a much more granular and accurate method of controlling all the parameters.

    Anyway, I am hijacking the thread, so I might just leave it at that for now.

  8. #22
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    Back to the original story of drill wobble. Bought a Bosch Blue from Bunnings in May last year and had to return it a week later as i thought the drill has Epilepsy! They sent it for repair , but refused to replace it! Took 2 weeks to repair. I was in Bunnings every other day trying to find out when it would be returned...not a happy bunny. The drill packed up this weekend whilst working on Jarrah doors, and arming myself with knuckle dusters and a meat cleaver expected the same from Bunnings, dumped it on the desk and explained to the nice young lady the issue and she refunded me the money then and there. Bet she had a ruler applied to the back of her legs at the close of day though ?? I think i should of stayed with Hitachi ??

  9. #23
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    my makita LXPH01 has freeplay in the chuck too, one of the makita drills with the metal gearbox i saw at the local tool shop this week does not.

    i dont worry about the freeplay as its mainly used for carcase construction, 3mm pilot holes and 5mm thru holes. It drills 5mm adj shelf holes without chipping the melamine board, so i am happy with it.

    the makita battery issue is a different story. i only run after market batteries now. they dont brick like the genuine makita batteries do.

  10. #24
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    What a hassle you fellows are having with your drills!

    The only time it's ever been an issue for me is with those "interchangeable" chucks that clip on & off SDS hammers & the like.

    Runout is a hassle, though. I've tried to use a "wobbly" drill with fine twist bits in a drill stand.... absolute nightmare.

    One problem I suspect is modern mass production techniques. Earlier tools were often assembled, and checked, by hand. This allowed poor construction or out of tolerance components to be identified before being released to end users.

    These days I imagine that only a fraction of production is ever tested, if at all!

    As consumers, we all have rights to goods of "serviceable or merchantable quality". If the drill is still new, you are entitled to a replacement or refund. Despite what Bunnings' staff might say, it's the law. If the item is used, then you still have similar entitlements, however a retailer might stipulate repair as an alternative.
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  11. #25
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    Wow I was considering a Makita Drill-Driver kit but not so what to think now. The bloke at the local ALL Tools said Milwakee used to be good until they move production to china and started to compete on cost rather than quality and Dewalt had also gone down hill in recent years. He recommended Makita as the pick of the bunch on the market. So either we are looking at the best of a poor bunch or the whole market has gone to S#!t. If these drilss etc in question are the "home handyman" range and poor quality what are they calling "PRO"? do I have to pay with my first born? I don't think a $300 handyman drill is cheap. On that point also I think anyone drilling a hole regardless of his trade status would want the hole to be straight, round, and within size.
    …..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands

  12. #26
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    I'd personally be thinking that $300 is at the "budget" end of things myself.

    Makita seem to specialise in tradesman tools. Strong, robust & long lasting. Designed for the rigours of site work. The more you pay, however, the better generally the quality. Selling a tool that has significant runout, however, is beyond the pale at any price point. Makita, as one of the first to market with brushless motors, is better than most in terms of torque output. The DPH481RTJ has excellent published specs: 640watts output!

    As previously mentioned I'm still personally a bit dubious as to the veracity of many manufacturers' claims. The ONLY latest release models I've had the opportunity to test "back to back" showed the superiority of 4 pole motors in terms of torque and drilling capacity. Brushless motors' benefits lie in other areas.

    The use of fuel injection as an analogy is appropriate, also. The first fuel injected cars released were pretty hopeless in comparison to their carburetted counterparts. Ford's throttle-body injected Falcon was renowned as a fuel thirsty slug. I had an old Audi with mechanical injection that was far from sophisticated, and when trying a 1.7l boxer motored Alfa, found it nowhere near as responsive as my own 1.5l carburetted version. New technology is often like that: it takes a few years to fully design in and utilise the benefits.

    So too with brushless tech. Newer drills, such as the Makita mentioned, are now at last becoming the equal in output of traditional brushed motors. I think it's relevant that to date there's been no 18v brushless circular saws or grinders. These tools require lots of power, which to date hasn't been available from brushless motors. I know Milwaukee make one, but given the number of dead "Fuel" motors my repairman has in his shop, that's no recommendation for brushless motors at all!
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  13. #27
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    I will never understand how a bigger outfit like Bunnings or Mitre 10 can convince a reputable manufacturer to prostitute itself and produce rubbish with their brand on it to be sold cheaper in their stores.
    Pathetic.
    Furthermore, the "quality" of cordless tools is so dubious to have become a matter of luck.
    “We often contradict an opinion for no other reason
    than that we do not like the tone in which it is expressed.”

    Friedrich Nietzsche


  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pearo View Post
    this is simply not true at all. A brushless DC motor will out perform a motor with brushes in both power and torque. Further more, the torque curve is far more linear across the speed range.
    I agree... You only have to look at remote control cars to see the advantages of a good brushless motor. They run smoother, cooler and faster. Much better technology in my opinion

    I have a Brushless Makita drill that i bought (skin only) from sydney tools online. I've used it heaps and it's been great. Very smooth, heaps of battery life. No slop what-so-ever that some people mentioned. Maybe the bunnings stuff is just cheaper built???

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