Thread: Sliding Compound Mitre Saw

Seems like you have made up your mind to buy a table saw. I went through the same decision 3 years ago and bought the LS1214, as I couldn't afford the space for a table saw and was also unhappy with the quality of table saws in this price range. Looking on the internet is good, but when you go to the shop you will find that a $1k table saw leaves a lot to be desired.

I have been extremely pleased with the LS1214. Sure, there are many things that you can't do with it but having a normal circular saw as well solves the ripping problems. Accuracy is 1st class. I have built most of the furniture in my house with Makita saws. Bosch & Dewalt are good too.

I have always spent more money on tools than I should of, but after using a mates LS1013 buying a makita was a no brainer. I have never been disappointed by a better tool than I needed, but have frequently been disappointed by cheap tools.

BTW, my first power tool purchases were a makita circular saw, bosch router, bosch ROS and bosch drill in 1998 and they are still going strong. I survived for 9 years and built many pieces of furniture before I had the cash to splash out on a SCMS, so don't believe the hype on the forum about how you must have a SCMS or table saw to make furniture. It takes longer, but you can do nearly all with smaller, high quality but cheaper tools.

Cheers,

Tom

Arri, if you're starting out on a lifetime's hobby, then I think you've taken an excellent first step in consulting with others before purchase.
I've been very disappointed in recent times by the lack of quality available in new tools available in most retail outlets.
I recommend you proceed slowly, and with patience, in purchasing both hand and power tools.
As you progress through your course, it will become quite evident which tools will be most useful, and which are unneccessary or extravagant luxuries.
Where possible, try to hunt down second hand tools.
These are almost invariably cheaper than modern equivalents, and often provide superior performance, especially if a high quality brand is chosen.
Best of luck in your new endeavour.

Originally Posted by Arry

Firstly many thanks again for the responses.

I have a general rule which I usually follow:

Chinese made = rubbish (no disrespect) but it is the truth
I try to buy things now that are made here in AUS, or Japan, US, Italy, Germany, UK etc etc

I have been burnt way too many times so to buy all of that equipment so for me that is out of the question although I do see your point.

To me though, what is the use of starting off with rubbish equipment, it would probably p*ss me off and make me not want to continue.

I do agree that perhaps a table saw would be a better buy first up due to its versatility.

When I now think about it, can a table saw do everything that a SCMS can do?

The chinese are perfectly capable of making good quality gear. It's true that they also make a good deal of rubbish.

I'm typing this on a top-of-the-line Mac laptop, "Assembled in China."


I bought my initial equipment based on advice from a book published by Popular Woodworking. Tools recommended for the projects in the book include a saw (hand-powered), a plane (hand-powered), some chisels (Irwin will do fine, until you're good enough to know otherwise, and then you will probably want more anyway), a CMS (not sliding), a random orbital sander, a circular saw, clamps clams and more clamps.

I bought a Maktec CMS - it's a lot cheaper than the Makita, made by the same company and comes with a Makita blade. I chose a different blade (more teeth for better cuts), and bought a new blade for my 30-year-old Makita circular saw,


I've now bought a tablesaw, a Sherwood, and it's made in China. Not the finest quality, but it's better than I am and likely to be perfectly adequate for my needs flor years to come. I have a 2HP dusty, and plan on buying a cheap bot not too cheap thicknesser or combination jointer/thicknesser soonish. Likely a Sherwood, or one of the other brands of the exact same thing.


I like Makita tools, and have several of them, but some of them (3612C router, the SCMSs) are a bit pricey for non-professional use.

I've been to classes at Sevenoaks College, they have a Festool circular saw and rail and clamps, and very nice kit it is - I used it once, but it costs as much as my tablesaw. Makita (and Dewalt I think) have similar kit for a similar price.

A tablesaw and sled will do much/most of what a SCMS does. I'll do it that way.

At your age, I would consider greater emphasis on hand tools. They're quieter.

Originally Posted by Arry

I was looking at the Carbatec MJ2325B.

Do you really think it is that bad? Anyone else here bought that model?

Maybe the one you bought was a lemon?

I hadn't really planned on spending over $2,000 on a Tablesaw...

Problem is, in Perth only a couple of places you can get one for and they are expensive.

P.S How on earth am I considered a Senior Member lol, I just noticed it )

1. I have this and I don't think it's rubbish. It's true the manual isn't very good, but it is adequate, and it does need setting up, but so do most saws. Also, it's heavy. I should have got wheels with it.

2. You talk a lot.

Originally Posted by Johncs

I'm typing this on a top-of-the-line Mac laptop, "Assembled in China."

That's hardly an example of china producing something good quality :lol:. The recent Mac laptops are some of the most poorly made computers I have ever had the displeasure of owning with so many problems as time rolls on. My last mac laptop laster 2 years before it looked like utter #### not to mention the crazy overheating and noise problems. My ibm thinkpad on the other hand is exceptional. However I hear that they have changed to china for manufacturing..pity.

Nothing wrong with chinese made if you accept it for what it is and don't pay premium price because it is never worth it. The mac is proof of that. Generally it gets the job done but expect it to deteriorate quickly as time rolls on. Good for infrequent users.

Now now gentlemen,

Its time to rule a line under this one. There is no right and wrong saw for the job and it doesn't serve much purpose to bag the low cost gear because it doesn't pretend to be anything else but it serves a purpose for some users a hell of a lot better than a tenon saw which costs about the same if you get a good one.

At the positive level you need to spend a fair bit of time (money where I come from) to get the best from an SCMS. You need to build it in to a pair of auxiliary benches/fences both sides that are perfectly aligned in both planes with the fence on the saw itself. Its quite possible with a Makita 300mmSCMS to do this to a standard where a 100mm square can be cut to the line exactly all round. It took me a day and a half work building the tables and shimming to get to this level of precision. With materials that' s close to another $grand. If you go to this trouble, and most don't because they don't care,then you can't take your SCMS on site so you need to buy a site docking saw.

It's esy to crosscut to the same level of precision with a quality sliding table cabinet saw plus you have the benefit of a scribing blade so you get zero breakout if you back up the material being cut where the blade exits. There is no problem at all holding the material steady enough to do this on a good saw. We are talking here of sizing accuracy of +/- 0.2 to 0.5 mm. You won't get within a bulls roar of this with a cheap sliding table saw either.

To make the SCMS perform better for precision docking I put a sacrificial piece of 3mm MDF under and behind each cut. That brings it up to the same standard as my SCM sliding table saw.

There's not a lot of magic in any of this: you get what you pay for and not everyone needs the same outcome or indeed cares that much about it.

My personal philosophy is to do the best job I can with every single operation and I almost never fall short of that desire because it's important to me in the time left to me to leave things that others will remark upon. ( plus I mix with folk who tend to get down on their hands and knees for a close up gander to make sure I haven't been taking any short cuts). I do the same with them.

Good buying and high standards!! Old Pete

There is no right and wrong saw for the job

I know it's probably not the point you were trying to make, but there certainly is a wrong saw for the job.

For example, you cannot rip on an SCMS, so if you want to do a lot of ripping, then an SCMS is probably not going to be your first buy. However an SCMS is very handy for cross cutting. Most of the other benefits of an SCMS don't apply to furniture making generally. I use mine mainly for building-related work. For example the depth setting is not accurate enough for cutting precision lap joints but it's good enough for framing.

A band saw will rip but it is limited by the distance between the column and the blade. It also cannot do trenching/dado cuts. However it can cut complex shapes; you can re-saw wide material and you can slice veneers. A lot of joinery can also be done with a bandsaw, including tenons, laps, dovetails, box joints etc.

Tablesaws have a much wider rip capacity and the offcut side is practically unlimited. They can do trenching/dado cuts. They can also be used to cove, cut dovetails and box joints. They will cross cut at any angle. They can also do compound mitres like an SCMS. However cross cuts on long material can be ungainly and require a lot of space around the saw and extra support.

Which machine will be the most useful for you depends on a number of things including what you do, how you were taught or how you learnt, and how good the respective machines are.

Personally I would use my tablesaw much more than the other two when in furniture making mode but I use the SCMS almost exclusively for building work.

As for quality, buy the best you can afford. The argument that infrequent use dictates a cheap tool doesn't necessarily follow because often cheap tools do a cheap job. Longevity is only one factor to consider. I bought a cheap hole saw once. It couldn't even cut a hole in 19mm ply, so it will outlast me probably as the rusting lump of steel in the cupboard that I only ever used once.

Having said that, all of my machines are made in China, with the exception of the Makita SCMS, which I presume was made in Japan. They do the job and there's no way I could justify (or afford) spending the money to buy European machines. In fact, Jet are one of the more popular brands for woodworking machinery and they are also made in China. The suggestion that everything that comes out of China is rubbish is.... rubbish.

We are talking here of sizing accuracy of +/- 0.2 to 0.5 mm. You won't get within a bulls roar of this with a cheap sliding table saw either.

With setting up this was easily achievable with a Ryobi SCMS, in fact an error of 0.5 mm was unacceptable and required recutting in most cases.

It horses for courses, a SCMS is perfect for making furniture. For getting the ends of your stock square, cutting mitres, cutting half laps, compound mitre cuts etc, etc.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, there is plenty of ways of getting the same job done and everyone swears by their own methods, even denegrating others to defend their position.

You may never use a SCMS or you may use it in every job and since you don't know which way you are going to go, if you buy one, buy a cheap one, same with every tool until you know how and what you are going to build and which tools you use the most, then start upgrading those.

It horses for courses, a SCMS is perfect for making furniture. For getting the ends of your stock square, cutting mitres, cutting half laps, compound mitre cuts etc, etc.

Yeah but a tablesaw does that too. This argument comes up time and time again. Really, the only two advantages I can think of that an SCMS has over a tablesaw are that very long stock is much easier to handle on an SCMS and they can be easily moved about. They are a boon for working on site, except that you can't do rip cuts, so you still need a circular saw (or a Triton )

I have a top of the line Makita and the depth stop on it is not good enough to do an accurate half lap. In addition to that, because the blade does not slide back past the fence, you need to put a spacer behind the workpeice to get a full-depth cut across the width of the board. You can make do with it but they don't excel at it.

I don't think it's horses for courses, I think it's each to his own

Originally Posted by montiee

That's hardly an example of china producing something good quality :lol:. The recent Mac laptops are some of the most poorly made computers I have ever had the displeasure of owning with so many problems as time rolls on. My last mac laptop laster 2 years before it looked like utter #### not to mention the crazy overheating and noise problems. My ibm thinkpad on the other hand is exceptional. However I hear that they have changed to china for manufacturing..pity.

Nothing wrong with chinese made if you accept it for what it is and don't pay premium price because it is never worth it. The mac is proof of that. Generally it gets the job done but expect it to deteriorate quickly as time rolls on. Good for infrequent users.

I've never been a great fan of Apple hardware, but a lot of people reckon its great. It was for this reason I mentioned the powerbook rather than my HP7700s which are also made in China, I've heard nothing bad about them except their ability to run Linux (I run Linux on them), they're cheap and rthey come with on-site warranty.

As for your Thinkpad (I have one of those too, it's made in Korea), the Chinese company Lenovo bought IBM's entire PC business a few years ago. Where would you expect a Chinese company looking for cheap manufacture to look? I'd guess China

Originally Posted by montiee

That's hardly an example of china producing something good quality :lol:. The recent Mac laptops are some of the most poorly made computers I have ever had the displeasure of owning with so many problems as time rolls on. My last mac laptop laster 2 years before it looked like utter #### not to mention the crazy overheating and noise problems. My ibm thinkpad on the other hand is exceptional. However I hear that they have changed to china for manufacturing..pity.

Nothing wrong with chinese made if you accept it for what it is and don't pay premium price because it is never worth it. The mac is proof of that. Generally it gets the job done but expect it to deteriorate quickly as time rolls on. Good for infrequent users.

The most recent Mac laptops with the milled Unibody cases are unrivalled in terms of quality and structural longevity. The plastic cased Macbooks of the past few years were/are terrible and I agree they had faults, however they were still a slimmer/lighter machine at a good price.

The most recent MBP's have a battery life exceeding 8hours in normal use - my point is that 'chinese made' can be both good and bad and it comes down to the manufacturers that suppliers use and whether they are on top of QC or not.

The mob I work for are major sellers of security equipment and the same story applies here - lots of cheap horrid stuff can come out when the focus is on saving the most money making a product but for a few extra $'s you get fantastic products that rival (and sometimes also use) the Japanese equivalents (at a very good price point).

Originally Posted by Bitslong

The most recent Mac laptops with the milled Unibody cases are unrivalled in terms of quality and structural longevity. The plastic cased Macbooks of the past few years were/are terrible and I agree they had faults, however they were still a slimmer/lighter machine at a good price.

The most recent MBP's have a battery life exceeding 8hours in normal use - my point is that 'chinese made' can be both good and bad and it comes down to the manufacturers that suppliers use and whether they are on top of QC or not.

The mob I work for are major sellers of security equipment and the same story applies here - lots of cheap horrid stuff can come out when the focus is on saving the most money making a product but for a few extra $'s you get fantastic products that rival (and sometimes also use) the Japanese equivalents (at a very good price point).

I would also add that the problems that have developed were mostly from the original American design, not the Chinese manufacture

An interesting thread.

From which SCMS to which tool.

And how much tuning needed.

Always useful.

Leaving aside the q of which horse for which course, for a grand it would seem you could get an SCMS that will be accurate and reliable out of the box, but not with a table saw. Maybe with a bandsaw.

Fair?

Tom, thanks for that link. Just put in an order. Good prices.

Actually, I was forgetting .... a 10" Leda table saw I had for around a grand worked pretty much out of the box.

A Woodfast bandsaw on the other hand, for about the same $$, didn't and if coplanar wheels are critical would never. And every blade change means mega mucking around.