Thread: BobL throws the Chain Saw Mill in for a bandsaw mill!

Originally Posted by BobL

If only it was that simple. The DinaSaw with the MSA is considerably more sophisticated that this with a Left - right - centre sequence that sounds like its really worth having.

I think that if one decides not to grind them like a professional setup would (with a wheel profile spot on, to sharpen and maintain the gullet/hook angle/back angle for every tooth ) ….

then, yes, it is that simple in my opinion. A nonprofessional setup is just a process that allows you to touch up the hook angle. ie. Grind at an angle using a reference tooth(the stop) . And that maybe more economical than getting a professional involved OR even buying a sort of midrange sharpening machine like you have there. Thats what I'd like to know.

Look, you can learn anything on youtube! .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bmws4hDGgg

The price of a setter and sharpener plays for a lot of professional sharpening but then I have no immediate and fine control over the various sharpening settings to suit what I'm doing - which remains to be seen how useful that will be. Given my experience with chainsaw chains I like to have a high level of control over what is going on.

I agree. control is everything. if the blades going to be drifting all the time etc... because of crappy sharpening, then yeh. whats the point.

I'm just thinking that possibly the fastest/economical way may well end up being just buying disposable bimetal blades and touch them up with a simple jig. And throw away when the cuts starts waver. Then can do all myself and don't have to get anyone else involved.

Good luck with it all. Like to see that setter you've got.

just an opinion. Not an expert on working out the best direction one should take for sharpening blades. 2 cents worth.

Bob

I have only just seen this thread. Really good score. It sounds as if you get full use without any of the expense. I'm sure it will prove to be excellent.

You should be able to set the mill up to resaw slabs into boards by placing several vertically on the mill. My mill uses a bearing guide on the exit side of the cut. This prevents the boards being knocked over by the side force of the blade.

I noticed some comments regarding sawdust. I think that moving from CS mills to a bandsaw will be quite an improvement. The kerf is less than 1.5mm compared to perhaps 5-6mm for the CS. Also the dust is ejected to one side. Sawdust is much much less of an issue overall. Eventually, with a fixed mill such as yours, you will have to clear away the sawdust, but I suspect you have machinery on hand for that.

I know those Dinasaw sharpeners are very expensive. I would not walk away from it while it is running. My advice is to watch it like a hawk. In the video it looks as though your automatic machine is the type that bevels the top of the tooth, which is much more sophisticated that my manual straight cut version.

I would comment that I don't think you don't have it set up quite right yet and I realise you are still learning. From that video, you are taking too much from the face of the tooth. That amount of sparks should only come from the gullet where a little deepening will probably be of benefit in removing sawdust. The grinding wheel should barely "kiss" the front face. Providing you can just see new bright metal, that is sufficient. At the rate you were going there, I don't think you would get more than three or four sharpening from the blade.

I also clean the blade with WD40 or similar before puting it in the sharpener. Just spray and wipe over the length. It ensures a smooth passage through the machine at a constant rate. If there are any gummy bits on the blade it disrupts the sharpening process.

I couldn't see in the pix whether you have a a water coolant set up for the bade. It is almost essential, but of course see how you go. The big enemy of the band blade is heat. If the tooth line gets too hot, it expands and then wanders all over the place.

By the time the blade needs setting I found that it was past the hardened part of the tooth and setting wasn't really an option. I used to have the setter but sold it as I never used in practice.

Overall it looks like you have an excellent set up there and I will look forward to seeing some production in your usual comprehensive fashion .

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by JDarvall

I'm just thinking that possibly the fastest/economical way may well end up being just buying disposable bimetal blades and touch them up with a simple jig. And throw away when the cuts starts waver. Then can do all myself and don't have to get anyone else involved.

Sure, I can understand that. The time needed to get up to speed with setting up a sharpener and getting the hang of sharpening is also significant.
Maybe you could even sell your used blades to someone with a sharpener?

Good luck with it all. Like to see that setter you've got.

Thanks
This is the setter, http://www.dinasaw.com.au/setterpage.html
It is very easy to set up and use
The setter Video provided is terrible - I'll take a better one when I next set it up.

Thanks for the detailed tips Paul, much appreciated

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Bob
I have only just seen this thread. Really good score. It sounds as if you get full use without any of the expense. I'm sure it will prove to be excellent.

We hope so.

You should be able to set the mill up to resaw slabs into boards by placing several vertically on the mill. My mill uses a bearing guide on the exit side of the cut. This prevents the boards being knocked over by the side force of the blade.

Sounds like a good idea.

I noticed some comments regarding sawdust. I think that moving from CS mills to a bandsaw will be quite an improvement. The kerf is less than 1.5mm compared to perhaps 5-6mm for the CS.

I've done a few kerf measurements of chainsaw chains in my time.
Here is a summary of a survey I did a while back
1) 404 = 9 mm
2) 3/8 = 8
3) Lo profile 3/8 = 7 mm
So I'm looking forward to converting less wood into sawdust.

you will have to clear away the sawdust, but I suspect you have machinery on hand for that.

Yep - two small loaders are available for this

I know those Dinasaw sharpeners are very expensive. I would not walk away from it while it is running. My advice is to watch it like a hawk. In the video it looks as though your automatic machine is the type that bevels the top of the tooth, which is much more sophisticated that my manual straight cut version.

Yes it is the MSA version

I would comment that I don't think you don't have it set up quite right yet and I realise you are still learning. From that video, you are taking too much from the face of the tooth. That amount of sparks should only come from the gullet where a little deepening will probably be of benefit in removing sawdust. The grinding wheel should barely "kiss" the front face. Providing you can just see new bright metal, that is sufficient. At the rate you were going there, I don't think you would get more than three or four sharpening from the blade.l

Yep I agree with this. It was my first attempt and I'm figuring I might even have to waste a blade (we have 10 blades) in practicing.

l

I also clean the blade with WD40 or similar before puting it in the sharpener. Just spray and wipe over the length. It ensures a smooth passage through the machine at a constant rate. If there are any gummy bits on the blade it disrupts the sharpening process.l

Yep that was in the instructions. I used an Inox spray but being an old used blade I probably should have cleaned it up even more than I did because the blade was jerking around the track at times

I couldn't see in the pix whether you have a a water coolant set up for the bade. It is almost essential, but of course see how you go. The big enemy of the band blade is heat. If the tooth line gets too hot, it expands and then wanders all over the place.l

The ABN wheel being used is a bit like a CBN wheel and performs a cooler grind than regular wheels. It seems to be quite effective at doing this.

By the time the blade needs setting I found that it was past the hardened part of the tooth and setting wasn't really an option. I used to have the setter but sold it as I never used in practice.l

The blades we have don't use a fully hardened tip (thats probably why they cost an arm and a leg) so should last a bit longer than a regular hard tip blade.

Originally Posted by BobL

The ABN wheel being used is a bit like a CBN wheel and performs a cooler grind than regular wheels. It seems to be quite effective at doing this.

The blades we have don't use a fully hardened tip (thats probably why they cost an arm and a leg) so should last a bit longer than a regular hard tip blade.

Bob

I didn't explain myself properly with the water coolant. I didn't mean during the grinding process. I meant when milling timber. I have water playing on the blade at both entry to the timber and exit. The water can benefit from a water softener if it is not rain water or already soft (borax powder works well) and also a squirt of washing up detergent to keep the blade free of gunk.

My mill was already set up for water cooling to the blade, but I remember talking to the Dino saw people and they recommended "copious quantities of water". They used to manufacture the Dinasaw machine, but that was many years ago.

If your blades don't have a hardened (tempered) tip, you may well get to the point of needing to reset. All the blades I used were pretty much done by that time.

By the way for those interested, you can use a modified handsaw set. You have to extend the tool to sit across the much bigger teeth:

Bandsaw Saw Set 003.jpgBandsaw Saw Set 001.jpgBandsaw Saw Set 002.jpg

The set on the right has a couple of wings brazed on so it can sit across the teeth. These particular sets are the Eclipse No.77. You can use virtually any type but it is going to be a lot easier to attach the wings if it is brass (or steel if you find a really old one).

With this arrangement, you can set any configuration. All my blades have two set teeth followed by a non set tooth.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

I didn't explain myself properly with the water coolant. I didn't mean during the grinding process. I meant when milling timber. I have water playing on the blade at both entry to the timber and exit. The water can benefit from a water softener if it is not rain water or already soft (borax powder works well) and also a squirt of washing up detergent to keep the blade free of gunk.l

Yep - this mill has water cool plumbing all set up.

If your blades don't have a hardened (tempered) tip, you may well get to the point of needing to reset. All the blades I used were pretty much done by that time.

We have the Dinasaw setter as well.

Originally Posted by BobL

We have the Dinasaw setter as well.

Bob

I did see that, but I also noted that your bands are only left and right set and you can't use the machine. Perhaps you could experiment with the hand setter on those blades. It is tedious and only differs from watching paint dry in that your wrist is ready to fall off by the time you have gone around both sides .

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by BobL

I've done a few kerf measurements of chainsaw chains in my time.
Here is a summary of a survey I did a while back
1) 404 = 9 mm
2) 3/8 = 8
3) Lo profile 3/8 = 7 mm
So I'm looking forward to converting less wood into sawdust.

I haven't much milling experience, and my mills not flash. but with the 'hardwood mill australia ' mill I have, I allow

..5mm

So if I'm just backsawing a log into say 50mm slabs. I just drop 55mm every time and they all end up 50 mm.

When I first started it was about 3-4mm allowance for kerf, but for some reason I only get consistency now when I allow 5mm even when I switch to a new blade.

Its with those lennox bimetal blades.

*****
The best results I get are when I simply push the thing along on my knees. This way my eyes in line with the blade so I can always monitor how its floating about, and change feed rate accordingly constantly as I go…..

So I would if I was you, make a frame about knee height to put the whole lot on. Take it all up higher. Save your back taking off boards, and puts your eye in line with the blade more….. I'd do it, but I'd need a forklift to put the log up high, which I don't have.

Just an opinion. Not an expert on walking on your knees. 2 cents worth.

Originally Posted by BobL

You can see I haven't cleaned out the entire gullet but I reckon it will still make some sawdust.

Bob I have just gone back over your post. There is no need to completely grind the back of the tooth. in fact it is not desireable as if you make a mistake and completely clean off the back, you will lower the tooth height.

What you have done there is perfect. As I mentioned before, you can slightly deepen the gullet if you wish by adjusting the machine. You should only hear a slight "titter" of the disc caressing the face of the tooth before the deeper grinding sound as the disc gets into the gullet. Too heavy grinding also wears the disc prematurely. That probably sounds blinding obvious, but it also means adjusting the machine as it is set up for the radius of the disc when you start.

I expect your manual describes how to shape the grinding disc, but just in case it requires a very small radius on the top and quite a pronounced bevel on the bottom. I use a grey dressing stick intended for dressing the wheel on a bench grinder to profile the grinding wheel.

Nothing is particularly straight forward with bandsaw . But the rewards are there for those who persevere .

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Bob I have just gone back over your post. There is no need to completely grind the back of the tooth. in fact it is not desireable as if you make a mistake and completely clean off the back, you will lower the tooth height.

Thats why I stopped at this point

What you have done there is perfect. As I mentioned before, you can slightly deepen the gullet if you wish by adjusting the machine. You should only hear a slight "titter" of the disc caressing the face of the tooth before the deeper grinding sound as the disc gets into the gullet. Too heavy grinding also wears the disc prematurely. That probably sounds blinding obvious, but it also means adjusting the machine as it is set up for the radius of the disc when you start.l

"titter" - Yep - I hear ya!

I expect your manual describes how to shape the grinding disc, but just in case it requires a very small radius on the top and quite a pronounced bevel on the bottom. I use a grey dressing stick intended for dressing the wheel on a bench grinder to profile the grinding wheel.l

The ABN wheel is like a CBN wheel - it needs no shaping and no dressing.

Nothing is particularly straight forward with bandsaw . But the rewards are there for those who persevere .

Thanks

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Bob

I did see that, but I also noted that your bands are only left and right set and you can't use the machine. Perhaps you could experiment with the hand setter on those blades. It is tedious and only differs from watching paint dry in that your wrist is ready to fall off by the time you have gone around both sides .

I see what you mean.

I spent a couple of days down at the tree loppers yard working on the BS mill.

I got close to starting the engibe several times but found a few issues that I thought would be best to sort out before we start it up.

The first thing was I didn't like the way the petrol tank line was permanently connected to the engine. I wanted to be able to disconnect and remove the tank completely from the mill. All it would take would be an idiot to break into the yard and spread petrol around and light it. I fitted one of those quick fit petrol connectors similar to what are used on boats which means I can easily put the petrol take under lock and key when I'm not using it.

The next thing I found was how restricted the max height of the blade was above the bed of the mill. The highest I could get the blade was 500 mm which means larger logs would have to be handled far more than necessary. The limit was not the mill but a potential collision between engine belt and lifting chain guards. I gained about another 80 mm by cutting away small sections of these guards but now there is another bracket that is in the way. There are also a couple of other brackets in the way that we will move to improve the height to around 800 mm.

At this point I thought I would be ready to start cutting but when we turned on the water supply the black retic hose we laid across the top of the shed to get the water to the mill split ,so we found a couple of long hoses to connect up to just get the thing cutting.

So finally we were able to start. By now it was 4pm and the tree lopping crew had arrived back and were all standing around with beers so the pressure was on. Anyway using the first blade I had touched up last week it cut through a 600mm spotty fairly quickly and the crew were impressed. I need to find a way to hold down the log as it was rocking back an forth on the bead.

Sorry no pics, the new Kubota skid steer tuned up and so we were too busy drooling over that for the rest of the arvo.

Originally Posted by BobL

I need to find a way to hold down the log as it was rocking back an forth on the bead.


.

I picked up some of this idea from a friend of mine. modified to suit me a bit.

First pic…… modified the stops by welding on top a flat bar. Grind a bevel on it. Importantly want the bevel facing down. This way when the log bites it pulls it down fixed. Bevel up lifts. Weld up sets of stops with different length bars to accommodate for different width logs (centring) . Keep the bevels sharp. makes a big difference (at wrecking your feet if your wearing thongs)

2nd pic…..need an adjustable stop to press against the flat bar stops from the first pic.After all the adjustable stop ideas I've mucked about with this seems to one of the best ways….

Just off cut branches etc that are cut at an angle. ie. quickly made sacrificial pieces. Drive them into a wooden base with either roofing or baton screws with a portable rattle gun. Uno, can lock them in tight with the screws very low out of the way. The screws directed in to help drive the angled offcuts in tight. Quickly. Interestingly faster than some clever welded up jig sometimes in my opinion.

Anyway with both bevel stop and angle offcuts I get good stability all the way to the bottom.

not trying to tell you how to suck eggs. Not trying to teach you anything. Not trying to imply I'm smarter than you . Just trying to contribute with someone who has a similar interest. Just another idea.

goodluck.

Originally Posted by JDarvall

I picked up some of this idea from a friend of mine. modified to suit me a bit. . . . . .

Thanks for the ideas.

The mill I'm using doesn't have any wood in the base so I can't really screw into it and I don't want to add any more height to it as I would lose cutting depth.

I've got some experience holding logs while milling from when I built building my small chainsaw rail mill

On the BSM the logs rest on 50 x 100 mm RHS so It will have to be something that can lock onto those.