Thread: Borax in water that runs on bandsawblade ?

Jake,
personally have never heard of it being done let alone trying it myself and I believe it wouldn't work very well

Boron, the main ingredient in Borax, is for keeping the borers away. So using in whilst milling has merit.

The biggest problem I have with Borax is that it is best dissolved in warm water, but then can quickly crystallise again when the mix cools, so can clog the pipes/pumps. Boron powder however dissolves even on cold water, so doesn't have this problem, but costs up to 4x as much.

Hi Jake

Borax is a wetting agent
wetting agents reduce the surface tension of water helping the water molecules "stick" to things and thus carry them away.
detergent is probably the most common wetting agent, helping dirt in clothes or on plates stick to the water rather than stay on the clothes or crockery. Once the dirt is stuck to the water, it can be rinsed off the surface it is on.

Thanks for all the input.

I had a boror problem in silky oak and has had me thinking about prevention. borax apparently being low toxicity.

thanks
Jake

Originally Posted by apricotripper

Thanks for all the input.

I had a boror problem in silky oak and has had me thinking about prevention. borax apparently being low toxicity.

thanks
Jake

I guess that's the Q. what would be the result of heat and atomizing of the solution be to our health weighed up against the benefits? Anyone got that knowledge?

The big green shed carries Borax. It's described as a "multi purpose cleaning agent" here is the link to MSDS for what they sell
https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9...b54b9c7549.pdf

technically, borax is

Sodium tetraborate decahydrate

generally described as Na₂B₄O₇·10H₂O or Na₂[B₄O₅(OH)₄]·8H₂O

yes, after reading all those letters and numbers my head hurts too


According to Wikipedia -- Borax, sodium tetraborate decahydrate, according to one study, is not acutely toxic
(ref: http://pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC34355#Toxicity Retrieved on 2012-02-17.)

Originally Posted by Tim Creeper

I guess that's the Q. what would be the result of heat and atomizing of the solution be to our health weighed up against the benefits? Anyone got that knowledge?

I'm guessing its one of those things nobody really knows. Uno, plenty of feelings, but nothing concrete.

I tried a little bit…..after brushing it on, I'd carry the timber away to stack without gloves. After a morning of this I wondered why my hands hurt. Look down and my hands were all red. Badly Like I'd been sun baking through noon in the middle of summer. I didn't feel sick though…. or nauseous … or nervy like you feel when some chemicals get on you. Just red sore hands.

I don't want to use it anymore. Its low toxicity but still don't like the use of it. And the use of something possibly toxic, will be the next attack. If people think I'm using chemical (even if its low toxicity), nobody will want the offcuts I give away for firewood. If I make something small like a cutting board, they'll think their eating off a chemical (even though there's nothing on it after the surfacing) .

A friend of mine mentioned camphor balls. A good idea maybe. Camphor repels bugs, so maybe stack with some potent smelling camphor.

But then I suppose, there will be a group of people who will then say that I'm not protecting my timber properly from borer. Implying that if you buy his furniture , down the track hidden grubs will surprise you, eating there way out. Cant win situation. (throw hands up in the air smilie)

Thats all I've got on that.

As for some kind of additative to help wash away debri on the bandsaw mill. I don't think I'd even bother with detergent. I'll just turn the tank water tap on more. Might make the place on the wet side, but at least its all clean.

Borates are naturally occurring mineral/ chemical compounds that you encounter every day regardless of what you do and where you live. As a trace element it is essential for plant growth, and it occurs naturally in the food you eat: ie it's quite safe, unless you try and eat it by the pound.

borates are also the oldest group of timber preservatives, having been used by humans to preserve wood for at least a couple of thousand years!!! It,s considered to be the "greenest" option out there. It also, when the preservative loading is sufficient, is a fire retardant. Adequately borax treated timber will not burn.

basicly it's good stuff, and far more environmentally benign then other treatment options. Now for the bad news... Spraying timber with a borate solution is not a preservative loading. AS whateverthenumber defines the minimum loadings of solutions that must be present to class as preservative treated, and you ain't getting there without either pressure treatment, a day long soak in a hot dip, a week long soak in a cold dip, or block stacking for a month in a diffusion envelope. A borax overspray will only give you surface protection, which is fine if all you want to do is keep the critters out. True borax preservation goes right through the timber. A weak solution on a bandsaw blade won't be particularly effective I,d imagine.

in Australia, borates are then classed as H1 above the Tropic of Capricorn, and H2 ( I think) below it. The rest of the world classes borates as a H3 treatment, but hey, the guys who advise the government here are smarter then everyone else apparently.

oak gives me a skin reaction, or at least cardwellia does. So do other timbers. Borax however doesn't worry me at all, and I use a fair bit of it. Just sayin'

Have used Borax for over thirty years, suffered no ills. You will probably find red hands caused by the timber. Mixed in lube water makes an easy application method as every stick gets a total coat as it goes through the saw,saving extra work and a hit and miss job spraying stacks. I use it both with the band saw and the Lucas mills.
As John said, it is only an envelope treatment.

Borax is the active ingredient in Antrid liquid. Their MSDS might you some more info.

Originally Posted by rustynail

Have used Borax for over thirty years, suffered no ills. You will probably find red hands caused by the timber. Mixed in lube water makes an easy application method as every stick gets a total coat as it goes through the saw,saving extra work and a hit and miss job spraying stacks. I use it both with the band saw and the Lucas mills.
As John said, it is only an envelope treatment.

Well , each to their own.

I've been handling timber for long enough to know if its caused by handling timber or not (or maybe I come across that stupid). That would have been the first thing I would have considered. I think I learn't that one the first day I ever handled timber

The redness was on both sides of both hands and extended up near my wrist. And burned. I still have yet to learn how to hold timber with the back of my hands. Maybe thats something you could teach me how to do ?

Maybe I put too much in ? How much do you add to your water ? what ratio.

Have you ever tried storing camphor near milled timber ?

What happens when you let your cedar sap get chewed up, knowing it won't go any further than that ? Have your not put borax in the water lube for the milling of the cedar ? I don't want any borer anywhere where I work knowing it spreads.

(<- I'm not really doing this. It just seemed appropriate) UNLESS ! ….the bloke at the shop didn't give me borax ! Its white powdered crystals that dissolve in hot water right ? In cold water I noticed it didn't dissolve. Is that the stuff ? …unless it was coacane. Does coacane burn your hands ?

Borax should be mixed to the saturated solution point, however if you're using it cold I'd just mix it in cold water till it wont dissolve any more. And it should dissolve in cold water, though obviously it doesn't take as much and it usually seems to need to sit in the water half an hour or so before it will stir in.

The "correct" mix ratio for maximum uptake of borates by timber is 60% borax to 40% boric acid by weght, and then make a saturated solution. This apparently gives the maximum loading of borate possible in the solution. (Or boil your borates into propylene glycol for a far faster uptake, and go up a H level. Thats probably not something you should do at home without taking precautions though as the fumes are not so nice).

I guess if you find it to be a skin irritant then the simple thing would be to not use it.

Originally Posted by John.G

Borax should be mixed to the saturated solution point, however if you're using it cold I'd just mix it in cold water till it wont dissolve any more. And it should dissolve in cold water, though obviously it doesn't take as much and it usually seems to need to sit in the water half an hour or so before it will stir in.

The "correct" mix ratio for maximum uptake of borates by timber is 60% borax to 40% boric acid by weght, and then make a saturated solution. This apparently gives the maximum loading of borate possible in the solution. (Or boil your borates into propylene glycol for a far faster uptake, and go up a H level. Thats probably not something you should do at home without taking precautions though as the fumes are not so nice).

I guess if you find it to be a skin irritant then the simple thing would be to not use it.

I used about that ratio with cold water. I found it didn't dissolve well. So I warmed up some water and poured it in to finally dissolve it. Hands flared up after.

I agree the simple thing is not to use it.

Have you ever tried ideas such as camphor being placed in close proximity to the timber you want to protect from borer ? ….That be ideal for me, because if it works I can avoid chemicals altogether.

Have you ever seen any evidence of borax treatment actually working first hand……like say you forgot to treat one stack next to a stack you did treat….and noticed the untreated stack got borer...

Have you ever noticed some direct improvement in borer prevention by adding borax to the bandsaw mill water ? …..again, some useful contrast. Uno, something like a stack of timber milled with borax and another without.

I'm sorry about all the questions. I don't mean it to sound like an interrogation. But these are the sort of things, in my opinion, I need to form a reasonable opinion.

just wondering. Not an expert at trying to bypass the BS and get to the bottom of it. 2 cents worth.

Hi Jake

Please enlighten me why you wish to use Borax, and on what? Bandsaw blade!? Why?

I recently read of one recommendation for "laundry borax in distilled water" as an aid for reducing stiction on waterstones. Other than that I only know of it as an insecticide. Do you plan to exterminate your bandsaw? Does the steel frame have borer?

Regards from Perth

Derek