Thread: Boxed heart

Now the interesting thing there is, to look at that piece of stick, taking into account its specie and its grain formation, you could be excused for thinking it wouldnt crack in a million years. But it did. Sitting in the shed it did. In the humidity of the tropics it did. Why? Heart.
Ive been in this game too long and have seen too many cases where scrounging big sizes out of small logs has caused nothing but problems. There are still plenty of mills out there for an agent to go to if he's not happy with his current supplier. The old boys know this and there are a lot of associations and friendships that go back a long way. The two things that can nip those partnerships in the bud are the
two titties...Reliabilititty and qualititty. I could not give a rodents posterior for the cheap end of the market. Its there for whoever, be it imports, local small log mills and plantation grown immature saplings. Its the good stuff that needs to be managed carefully, both in production and marketing. The last thing I want to see is the bottom end pulling the top end down with it. And that is where we are heading.

Originally Posted by John.G

The problem with pith wood is it does unpredictable things. That's not a reason not to use heart in timbers, at least in larger sizes. It is a reason though to be cautious, at least as far as appearance grading goes.

IMG_0919.jpgIMG_0917.jpg

John,it is actually predictable..guaranteed it (pith wood) will move and dance to the beat of a thousand drums and that is reason enough not to use heart in timbers...and reason to be cautious...they look great lining the garden though...MM

I've cut a lot of boxed heart over the years, mostly eucalypts. I expect to cut a lot more.

Thing is with it is this: If you were to ring me tomorrow and say you wanted some 10 x 10's or bigger I'd ask you what they were for. Depending on the application I'd decide whether I thought you could get away with boxed heart or not, then in any case I'd give you the price for boxed heart, and the price for no heart: there's a BIG difference between the two. I might also tell you that in your application I wasn't selling you boxed heart if I didn't think it a good idea... the hardest thing to shake in this business is a bad name: I don't want one.

I'd rather turn business away then put a serious load bearing timber into a house and have it "fail".

If I decided boxed heart was okay I'll sell you one. I don't box much under 10 x 10... do the odd 8 but the "fail" rate is too high. 8x8's are fine for mining timbers where the only criteria is strength... appearance wise they don't cut it for me. I don't want to be the guy who sold you the lintel post with the big split in it; if I'm the guy who sold you the house stump with a split in it but it's still F22 I won't feel too bad.
You get what you pay for, and I've always been up front about the risks involved with the cheaper option. In writing, and not in some fine print somewhere either.
I cut 10 x 10 boxed hearts on spec... when you get a boxed heart post off me, you can bet it's been cut at least eighteen months. Back to drafting out that high structurally sound but appearance poor "fail" rate.

Over about 300 x 300 the game changes a little... subject to not being placed under an uneven drying stress (eg one side in the sun all day and the other in the shade) they hold up quite well, and by the time you get up to the real bigun's it can be difficult to get any log big enough to cut an order boxed heart or no.

The reality is it's getting harder to source logs to cut big beams out of, sometimes even with a boxed heart. I've got an order been sitting on my books for over two years now, when I get "the tree" I'll cut it. I told him if he could get that particular order elsewhere all I wanted was a "don't bother" phone call. I gave him the list of who else might be able to do it. Then I called all the guys on that list and asked them if they could do it or got a log in that might do it to give me a call.
Dude's in no rush... just as well. What he wants grows on trees.... but not a lot of trees grow that big. At least where I'm allowed to cut them anymore. Sooner or later something will wash down a river...

The other thing is that when one starts to go to mortice and tennon heavy timber construction... splits are par for the course. You don't see them, but somewhere way up in those big hammer beams in a 500 year old European cathedral are splits you can put your hand into. Consumer perception of timber is flawed... timber isnt some perfectly even man made surface... it gets bug holes, and checks, and in 4 foot deep beams it gets drying cracks you'd need a rope to climb out of. If you don't want those splits... laminate a whole heap of 2" KD together, and lets see if the epoxy can still carry 200 tones of slate roof in a hundred years.

and I won't sell you a Qld Maple for a garden sleeper either... durability in ground sucks!!!

(actually it was one of a couple left over off an order... I always do extra on those sort of jobs, and always hold them back long enough to know if any are being difficult. It's not a particularly deep split... if I dont need to resaw it for something else in a year or two I'll rout out a trench on all four faces of a couple of them, fill any leftover crack with epoxy on that one, then insert in some 100 x 25 black nut boards... and sell them for a ridiculous amount of money. "Failure" is a relative term.)

Originally Posted by John.G

The other thing is that when one starts to go to mortice and tennon heavy timber construction... splits are par for the course. You don't see them, but somewhere way up in those big hammer beams in a 500 year old European cathedral are splits you can put your hand into."

Interesting that you brought this up. I'm a fan of the show 'Grand Designs' where green oak is often used - splits/checks like crazy and the Poms' seem to love it.

Originally Posted by John.G

IIt's not a particularly deep split... if I dont need to resaw it for something else in a year or two I'll rout out a trench on all four faces of a couple of them, fill any leftover crack with epoxy on that one, then insert in some 100 x 25 black nut boards... and sell them for a ridiculous amount of money. "Failure" is a relative term.)

John' I've not heard of 'Black Nut' - what is the species name?

Regards, Timboz

Originally Posted by timboz

Interesting that you brought this up. I'm a fan of the show 'Grand Designs' where green oak is often used - splits/checks like crazy and the Poms' seem to love it.

John' I've not heard of 'Black Nut' - what is the species name?

Regards, Timboz

"Black nut" is the local name for Black Walnut aka Queensland Walnut.

I should have smoked (I love nautical language) this earlier. Pretty hard to miss those big seeds eh John! By the way, do you have Bill and Wendy Coopers "Fruits of the Rainforest" book? It is a great reference book for someone like yourself.

Regards, Timboz

Originally Posted by MAPLEMAN

Check out how cheap treated 'hardwood' is at Bunnings...around $600-$700 a cube ..now how can a small mill compete against a price that low?...MM

I know this is resurrecting an old thread but I thought some of you may be interested. The nearest bunnings to me is selling F14 CCA treated 4.8-6.0 at the following rates...

100x50 $2048/m3 inc GST
150x50 $2440/m3 inc GST
100x100 $4098/m3 inc GST

Not exactly 6-700 m3

Originally Posted by Cran

I know this is resurrecting an old thread but I thought some of you may be interested. The nearest bunnings to me is selling F14 CCA treated 4.8-6.0 at the following rates...

100x50 $2048/m3 inc GST
150x50 $2440/m3 inc GST
100x100 $4098/m3 inc GST

Not exactly 6-700 m3

Was referring to their CCA treated Hardwood sleepers Cran.
200mm x 50mm x 2400mm for $16.98 = $700m3...MM