Thread: Boxed heart

Originally Posted by rustynail

Yes, if the cores are kept dry. Yes, if the timber is thoroughly dry, Yes, if the tree was young with sound heart.
But when we are trying to sell a naturally durable product that will probably be used and abused to extents well past our control, it becomes self defeating to factor in a built in defect that will besmirch the reputation of the product.
This is not to say that heart in is not acceptable full stop. What I am saying is it should not be considered as perfectly acceptable full stop.
This debate has cropped up many times over the years. As old growth resources
have declined and the cost of milling has increased to the extent where peoples lively hoods are threatened, it is understandable that all avenues be explored. But, to suggest that there is absolutely nothing wrong with heart will only undermine the status of our hardwoods. As has the generalisation of species that has taken place in recent years.
If I was still buying timber today, for export, I would still not be prepared to take heart in. Why? Because in many cases I dont know what that material will be used for. For example, ice breakers, built in the far north are prow clad with timber. Aussie Ironbark. The reason they prefer Ironbark is, it becomes smoother with abrasion. Most other timbers get furry. If I had sent a load of heart in to those blokes, I doubt there would have been any more orders.

I agree, it comes back to your earlier comment about high end versus low end product serviceable if young and dry - yes, premium product with maximum strength and service life - no.

Regards, Timboz

Love to see some pics of this 14 year old plantation stuff...MM

Originally Posted by timboz

I agree, it comes back to your earlier comment about high end versus low end product serviceable if young and dry - yes, premium product with maximum strength and service life - no.

Regards, Timboz

Exactly

Originally Posted by MAPLEMAN

Love to see some pics of this 14 year old plantation stuff...MM

Unfortunately that paper didn't include any photos. Many of the scantlings produced from young eucs tend to look like your standard knotty pine studs depending on the pruning schedule or self pruning ability of the species. Rose/flooded tends to self prune fairly high up when young then retain heavy branches though they can also carry a heavy load of occluded decayed branch stubs. There are some photos of plantation boards in these links Mapleman.

Regards, Timboz






http://www.crcforestry.com.au/.../Bu...ies.pdf‎

https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/08-113‎

Here is another link that you might find interesting Mapleman, and more particularly "an oxidised pointed iron rod" who is older than us and (probably) has fewer fingers than us who is also trolling this thread.

https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/09-041.pdf‎

Regards, Timboz

Originally Posted by timboz

Unfortunately that paper didn't include any photos. Many of the scantlings produced from young eucs tend to look like your standard knotty pine studs depending on the pruning schedule or self pruning ability of the species. Rose/flooded tends to self prune fairly high up when young then retain heavy branches though they can also carry a heavy load of occluded decayed branch stubs. There are some photos of plantation boards in these links Mapleman.

Regards, Timboz






http://www.crcforestry.com.au/.../Bu...ies.pdf‎

https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/08-113‎

Thanks for that Timboz..the forestry link though says 404 not found...MM

Originally Posted by MAPLEMAN

Thanks for that Timboz..the forestry link though says 404 not found...MM

Try searching "Sawn timber from native forests and plantations in Tasmania" and you should get the paper.

Happy hunting, Timboz

Originally Posted by rustynail

... What I am saying is it should not be considered as perfectly acceptable full stop...

Hence why I added explanation pertaining to my comment.....

I know heart has its problems - but a boxed heart post isn't a problem. After all how do you get something like a 300x300, never gonna happen without heart and it won't have any 'risk' in buying/selling.

Of course if you want to go to extreme applications like cladding ice breakers heart isn't going to be serviceable, but this thread is talking about boxed heart and are the ice breakers clad in 'posts' or 'boards'?

Again, I feel its down to the millers knowledge and experience. I'm not saying a boxed heart 4x4 is ok, but depending on species, age and application I don't see what the problem would be with a Boxed heart 6x6...

rusty - i think you may be geting confused, noone is saying heart in a 2" board is ok, that is asking for trouble, we are talking about boxing 150m square posts.

Originally Posted by Sigidi

Hence why I added explanation pertaining to my comment.....

I know heart has its problems - but a boxed heart post isn't a problem. After all how do you get something like a 300x300, never gonna happen without heart and it won't have any 'risk' in buying/selling.

Of course if you want to go to extreme applications like cladding ice breakers heart isn't going to be serviceable, but this thread is talking about boxed heart and are the ice breakers clad in 'posts' or 'boards'?

Again, I feel its down to the millers knowledge and experience. I'm not saying a boxed heart 4x4 is ok, but depending on species, age and application I don't see what the problem would be with a Boxed heart 6x6...

The reason I went to an extreme application, was to point out that often the use of the timber is not known to the miller. Nor, for that matter, to the reseller. To answer your question re the prow cladding, it is often 200mm thick. We could go on forever about which applications are suitable and not suitable for heart in. Also which species will or wont perform well.
Here's the catch; the miller wants to get the most from the log for his dollar and the buyer wants to get the best quality for his dollar. The art is finding that middle ground without compromising the product. Over the years, many standards have been lowered in many industries to compensate for the rising cost of production. Often to no ill effect and in other instances, catastrophic ramifications. Sometimes it is better to err on the side of caution.

Originally Posted by rustynail

. Sometimes it is better to err on the side of caution.

I agree ..i would never purchase a 'boxed heart' and would never recommend them to anyone not for any application.Fact is they look awfull and there is that uneasy feeling that they MAY fail in use.Particularly if they have 'hidden' multiple hearts that would compromise compressional strength.It might be an industry standard to accept 'boxed heart' but i am not convinced that they have the same integrity as a 'heart and pith free' post.An exercise in greater timber recovery from the log is all it is.Each to their own,but as i said,'boxed hearts' have the appearance of a 'dogs breakfast'.On aesthetics alone,you wouldn't buy 'em.When we fenced this place last year all the posts (tallowwood) were heart free including a couple of 6x6s.Truth is even the heart in the tallows(logs) that i milled were compromised ...MM

Basically, what is being suggested is that by surrounding the heart with enough wood the product will go the distance. Maybe, maybe not. If you want to sell to the top end of the market, it is best not to compromise your product. And if you do, be aware there are buyers out there who will not accept what you are producing. Its that simple.

Originally Posted by weisyboy

rusty - i think you may be geting confused, noone is saying heart in a 2" board is ok, that is asking for trouble, we are talking about boxing 150m square posts.

No confusion. If I was I have been for the past 45years. In that time I have seen many attempts at heart inclusion and what customer reaction has been.
The hardwood industry is a very different animal to the softwood producers. There are traditions which go back generations and are still adhered to today. When the decision is made to move away from those long held beliefs, it is advisable to be well foundered, otherwise you can expect plenty of flack.

One of the things I like about this place is the range of different viewpoints and experience that different people bring to the table,and that we manage to express our opinions for the most part respectfully and agree to disagree on occasions.

I want to talk about objective reality. So here’s some realities for y’all to chew on.

The reality is that we as an industry are having to transition to a plantation based resource. We might not like it – I certainly don’t – but the reality is that at some point in the future that’s what we’re going to have to use. We can kick and buck and squeal all we like but the day will come when there will be noharvesting of native forest hardwoods except as salvage. Now they haven’t planted those trees up here yet for the local industry to transition to, which means either I’m going to dodge some of that, or might get a transitional package if I’m lucky, but I doubt if there is 20 years left in the hardwood sector in this country as it stands today. If you don’t like it –leave the industry.

The reality is that in order to ”help” us learn to deal with it, we are being pressured to accept logs that were previously classed as unmillable. The average plantation log is taken at a DUB of 18”/ 450mm under bark and that is now what is classed as asawlog. Don’t like it – leave the industry.

The reality is that the Australian hardwood sector is unequipped to deal with logs that size. A linebar Canadian and linebarbench is woefully inadequate to deal with logs like that. One only has to lookto the successful eucalypt plantation operators to understand what kind of equipment IS suitable, (quad canter and sash gangs with chipper reducers) and know that we can buck and kick and squeal all we like but the answer will be “if they can do it, you can do it”. If you don’t like it – leave the industry.

The reality is that we need to look at where those successful eucalypt plantation operators are: Portugal, Brazil, Argentina, Spain andFrance are now the worlds largest eucalypt processing nations. Australia, home of the bloody things, only rates at 6^th. Give South Africa a few more years and we'll be 7th. And they’ve got more plantations coming on line all the time due to 50 years of government backed plantings. You don’t need to be a genius to work out that Argentina and Brazil at least have a cost structure well under ours, and that as their plantations mature and they start looking for markets it will be viable for them to export to here cheaper then we can cut our own. If you can’t do it cheaper – go broke first - then leave the industry.

The reality is that we are going to have great difficulty differentiating hardwood from mature “wild” trees from plantation stock, so it’s all going to be lumped to the lowest common denominator unless you have machine proof testing abilities. Buy one, or learn to compete with F8 gluelam flooded gum and gympie messmate hybrids. The market will adapt to it, and your “high” grade stuff will become a sideshow affair – rather like my Qld Maple and Northern Silky Oak is now in a domestic cabinet and joinery timber market dominated by imported species that can be bought cheaper than I can produce domestically. Figure a way through this or go broke – and leave the industry.

Am I happy about this –NO!!!. But I do know a fact when it's getting ready to bite me on the ass.

These are objective realities. 25 years at most… I’ll get through, but if my kids were interested in this business I’d be actively trying to dissuade them from it. It’s going to get messy before 2025, watch and see.