Thread: Boxed heart

Originally Posted by rustynail

John, I could not agree more. The future for our hardwood industry will bear little resemblance to the past. Quality will be the biggest issue and there will probably be a generation lost while forests come to maturity. That is, if they are permitted the time to do so. It's nice to have been able to leave the industry before the excrement hit the rotational device.

There’s anold guy name of Keith – chances are you’d know him – used to be a real big time sawmiller up here back pre the closures. So I’m having a yarn (the polite way of saying I’m being lectured) with him one day and I said “Things have changed a bit in the industry in the last twenty years Keith”. And he looked me square in the eye and said “The industry turns itself inside out every twenty years. I went into it in 194Owhateveritwas and it’s never been any different and never will and you should be doing…”
And he’s right. Twenty years ago if you had of said that the major building timber in Australia would be F8 crapiata I’d have laughed at you… at least up here. It went from “You aren’t building my house with that” to “Well maybe it’s okay for noggin” to today where its noggin, framing, roof trusses, batten, fascia and mouldings with hardwood only used for stairtreads and the bearers, rafters and deck on the exposed verandah. We’ve only sold something like 700m of 3x2 in the last three years – and 500 went to a guy roofing a shed. Used to be that all shortlogs went into 3x2 for framing timbers, and we’d sell 2x2 for banana props, and other such things that aren’t used anymore, or at least not in hardwood.
I might miss the “good old days” but today probably isn’t that bad, and tomorrow won’t be too bad either so long as I evolve. I’m having to learn new skills and having to look at doing old things in new ways and I’d rather not be doing that but y’know….a 9’ throat into the sash saw wasn’t a big number 1 up here once. Things have changed, and they’ll keep on changing. I can either buck, kick and squeal and get run over or change with them.

Thirty years ago, I spent some time in the softwood industry. From a marketing perspective it was a pleasant change from the hum drum of the traditional old hardwood game with all the same faces, all the same prejudices and vendettas.
Radiata was just starting to make inroads and was fast taking over as the general construction timber. Even the furniture industry started to show an interest as mature pine out of South Australia became available.
Still a hardwood and exotics man at heart, I was a wolf in sheeps clothing. Still, this was marketing and this was the product the Company wanted promoted.
I could not believe how easy it was. There was ongoing R&R, new products were coming on line on a regular basis and testing laboratories were in full song. It was a pleasant place to be for a marketing loud-mouth, even if it was a mediocre base product.
Meanwhile, back in the hardwood camp, what was happening? Nothing. The only flurry of activity was a foray into laminated beams. No R&R to speak of, very little testing and a steady decline in quality as young plantation material started coming on line, with mature old growth becoming harder and harder to source.
Over the following three years, I saw many traditional hardwood uses fall to Radiata. CCA really put the cat among the pigeons. But still the hardwood industry clung to the past. It was a sad spectacle for a hardwood boy at heart.
The twenty year cycle about which you and Clive speak (yes, I think I know who you mean) is probably an average, as it used to be more like 30 years but now has dropped to about 15. Over the next few years there will be far more changes than any of us old codgers would have ever imagined. Unfortunately, I don't think too many of them will be for the better

we to used to cut banana props normally from logs brought in by farmers from there property, we sued to have 40acres of bananas in brookfield every tree had to be double propped teh weeds chipped out between them and every bunch lugged on a shoulder to teh packing shed, cos it is goat country, now there grown on flat ground where a tractor can drive betwen the rows only 1 grower is left up here now and i still cut his props.

change is for the better boys, if it wasnt for change and progress we would still be cutting timber with pit saws and broad axes.

the reluctance to change with the industry is why so many old hardwood mills are going under, a lot of things are happening and being done every day in every warp of life i dont agree with but if you want to get ahead and keep cutting timber you have to embrace what is happening.

either move with it or get left behind. if down the road there selling structural that meets AS2082 6x6 for $30/lm and youre selling yours for $80/lm who do you think is going to be getting all the work, builders and retailers dont care whos product is better or stronger and most times neither dose the end customer, they just want bang for buck.

im not saying we should supply because we can but you have to remain compeditive with the market and if thats what is being sold and thats what people want then thats what you need to cut.

Originally Posted by weisyboy

we to used to cut banana props normally from logs brought in by farmers from there property, we sued to have 40acres of bananas in brookfield every tree had to be double propped teh weeds chipped out between them and every bunch lugged on a shoulder to teh packing shed, cos it is goat country, now there grown on flat ground where a tractor can drive betwen the rows only 1 grower is left up here now and i still cut his props.

change is for the better boys, if it wasnt for change and progress we would still be cutting timber with pit saws and broad axes.

the reluctance to change with the industry is why so many old hardwood mills are going under, a lot of things are happening and being done every day in every warp of life i dont agree with but if you want to get ahead and keep cutting timber you have to embrace what is happening.

either move with it or get left behind. if down the road there selling structural that meets AS2082 6x6 for $30/lm and youre selling yours for $80/lm who do you think is going to be getting all the work, builders and retailers dont care whos product is better or stronger and most times neither dose the end customer, they just want bang for buck.

im not saying we should supply because we can but you have to remain compeditive with the market and if thats what is being sold and thats what people want then thats what you need to cut.

Welcome to the cheap end of the industry. In my nick of the woods there are three saw mills left. Two have followed the pattern you have just described. The other mill has gone out on a limb, bought country, felled the big stuff and then sold the property to buy another. The timber they produce is top quality. Its an old mill but well run. A family operation that employs three generations. Their timber isnt cheap, but it is of consistent quality and they dont cut corners. The local builders patronise them because of it. The architects and engineers recommend them because of it. I recommend them because of it.
The other two mills? Well, one has closed and the other is struggling.

Originally Posted by MAPLEMAN

I agree ..i would never purchase a 'boxed heart' and would never recommend them to anyone not for any application.Fact is they look awfull and there is that uneasy feeling that they MAY fail in use.Particularly if they have 'hidden' multiple hearts that would compromise compressional strength.It might be an industry standard to accept 'boxed heart' but i am not convinced that they have the same integrity as a 'heart and pith free' post.An exercise in greater timber recovery from the log is all it is.Each to their own,but as i said,'boxed hearts' have the appearance of a 'dogs breakfast'.On aesthetics alone,you wouldn't buy 'em.When we fenced this place last year all the posts (tallowwood) were heart free including a couple of 6x6s.Truth is even the heart in the tallows(logs) that i milled were compromised ...MM

So you'd never be able to buy anything like a 10x10 and probably be out of luck to get an 8x8. Got a quote for 300x300's the other day - how in heavens name do you expect they would in any part of the galaxy be free of heart???? I cut a pair of 350x350 posts (funnily enough they where boxed heart posts from bluegum ) for a property entrace about 6 years ago using my 6" Lucas - strange thing is they look fantastic....

If a customer comes to me and wants a product I'll give them a price on it, simple as that. Carl and I are lucky, we get to deal personally with all of our customers (except one) none of our product goes offshore to places unknown, its all end user sales (except one) but I suppose if we have the temerity to sell a boxed heart post we'll go broke...

John G thanks very much for your level input

Originally Posted by rustynail

Welcome to the cheap end of the industry. In my nick of the woods there are three saw mills left. Two have followed the pattern you have just described. The other mill has gone out on a limb, bought country, felled the big stuff and then sold the property to buy another. The timber they produce is top quality. Its an old mill but well run. A family operation that employs three generations. Their timber isnt cheap, but it is of consistent quality and they dont cut corners. The local builders patronise them because of it. The architects and engineers recommend them because of it. I recommend them because of it.
The other two mills? Well, one has closed and the other is struggling.

how long do you think they can keep that up before there is not enough "big stuff" left?

there will always be a need for big trees for special orders but most of the logs are going to be from plantation and average under 400 diam.

we still cut native forest timber most of witch is second or third cut, we have logs in the yard up to 900 diamiter but we also have log that is under 300mm diamiter. its all about picing the log for the job, im not going to bust down a 600 diam 14m tallow log to get some fence rails, likewise im not going to go get a 300mm diam log and try and cut F17 4x4s.

I have only ever had one complaint or peice of timber returned and that was a peice that was ordered as a "sleeper" when it should have been select structural.

you may not be concerned becaus you will be retired by teh time the change is complete but i have another 40 years in this industry and we ight as well start changing now so were ahead when everyone else is scratching there heads wondering what there gunna do.

Hi Sigidi
If The tress are big enough you can! Theses are 400x400 redgum posts Free of heart

Originally Posted by Sigidi

So you'd never be able to buy anything like a 10x10 and probably be out of luck to get an 8x8. Got a quote for 300x300's the other day - how in heavens name do you expect they would in any part of the galaxy be free of heart???? I cut a pair of 350x350 posts (funnily enough they where boxed heart posts from bluegum ) for a property entrace about 6 years ago using my 6" Lucas - strange thing is they look fantastic....

If a customer comes to me and wants a product I'll give them a price on it, simple as that. Carl and I are lucky, we get to deal personally with all of our customers (except one) none of our product goes offshore to places unknown, its all end user sales (except one) but I suppose if we have the temerity to sell a boxed heart post we'll go broke...

John G thanks very much for your level input

As a consumer,i would NEVER purchase a 'BOXED HEART'...that's my prerogative to do so,not the millers prerogative as i said most of the time they look bloody dreadful and in my opinion good for the fire and nothing else .I would choose a laminated product over it,anything! Shouldn't be cutting oversized posts from undersized trees in the first place!!...MM

Originally Posted by weisyboy

how long do you think they can keep that up before there is not enough "big stuff" left?

there will always be a need for big trees for special orders but most of the logs are going to be from plantation and average under 400 diam.

we still cut native forest timber most of witch is second or third cut, we have logs in the yard up to 900 diamiter but we also have log that is under 300mm diamiter. its all about picing the log for the job, im not going to bust down a 600 diam 14m tallow log to get some fence rails, likewise im not going to go get a 300mm diam log and try and cut F17 4x4s.

I have only ever had one complaint or peice of timber returned and that was a peice that was ordered as a "sleeper" when it should have been select structural.

you may not be concerned becaus you will be retired by teh time the change is complete but i have another 40 years in this industry and we ight as well start changing now so were ahead when everyone else is scratching there heads wondering what there gunna do.

There are three things that determine the longevity of any industry; availability, quality and demand. Decline in any of these and you are looking for trouble. I understand your situation. And being retired, I am no longer at the mercy of a dwindling resource. But I am concerned with what happens to our industry. Very concerned. Plantations concern me. Poor old growth forest management concerns me. Pole milling concerns me. And last but not least, standards downgrade concerns me.

Originally Posted by gumred

Hi Sigidi
If The tress are big enough you can! Theses are 400x400 redgum posts Free of heart

And they look stunning...take note lads!I would buy this stuff ...Quality with a capital Q...MM

http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/ac772e/ac772e04.htm


Go look at the volumes they're talking about. Think on where it is. Then from the bottom of this page here:

http://www.solarkilns.com/announceme...-of-a-sows-ear

"REDGUM 180mm COVER ENGINEERED FLOORING- PLYWOOD ON BACK- 4MM SKIN. Market Value $75/ m2- China Manufacture Cost $25/ M2- Lamel wood value; 1 M3= 88M2 cover= Au$4400/M3"

We cannot beat them on price, either.

Racing to be cheapest might work for a while if you can do the volumes to get economy of scale, but once it starts landing here in volume... the biggest guys will fall first.

Answers have I none, cept to reposition myself in the market, and streamline my processing, and squirrel specially selected heart free timbers away for that 60 footer

Originally Posted by John.G

http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/ac772e/ac772e04.htm


Go look at the volumes they're talking about. Think on where it is. Then from the bottom of this page here:

http://www.solarkilns.com/announceme...-of-a-sows-ear

"REDGUM 180mm COVER ENGINEERED FLOORING- PLYWOOD ON BACK- 4MM SKIN. Market Value $75/ m2- China Manufacture Cost $25/ M2- Lamel wood value; 1 M3= 88M2 cover= Au$4400/M3"

We cannot beat them on price, either.

Racing to be cheapest might work for a while if you can do the volumes to get economy of scale, but once it starts landing here in volume... the biggest guys will fall first.

Answers have I none, cept to reposition myself in the market, and streamline my processing, and squirrel specially selected heart free timbers away for that 60 footer

Back in the eighties I had a dream one night, this Chinese junk coming through Sydney Heads with a string of floating bolsters tailing out behind it stretching back over the horizon. A couple of years later, I went for a bit of a wander to see how things were going with Eucs around the world. It was quite an eye opener. It transformed my dream from a nightmare to a vision of what was to come. I guess that was still a nightmare.

Originally Posted by rustynail

Back in the eighties I had a dream one night, this Chinese junk coming through Sydney Heads with a string of floating bolsters tailing out behind it stretching back over the horizon. A couple of years later, I went for a bit of a wander to see how things were going with Eucs around the world. It was quite an eye opener. It transformed my dream from a nightmare to a vision of what was to come. I guess that was still a nightmare.

Mate its that "China Manufacture Cost -$25/m2" that gets me. Forget landing logs on the infeed chains, forget getting sawn timber out... I'd be hard pressed to strip it out, load it on the carts, and shut the kiln door behind it for that, much less start to dry it.

Originally Posted by John.G

Mate its that "China Manufacture Cost -$25/m2" that gets me. Forget landing logs on the infeed chains, forget getting sawn timber out... I'd be hard pressed to strip it out, load it on the carts, and shut the kiln door behind it for that, much less start to dry it.

Gotta love 'Free Trade' ...its gonna get worse John,before it gets better (and that's assuming it does )...MM