Thread: New chainsaw sharpener ???

what is the best way to sharpen a blade? i picked up my new ms391 stihl today ,it will be used around here cutting trees etc ,and was wondering if it could be used on a small alaskan to mill small..250-.300 logs,any advice would be greatly appreciated................bob

Originally Posted by robyn2839

what is the best way to sharpen a blade?

The thing that cuts on a chain saw (CS) is a chain and the thing that supports the chain is called a bar, so there are no blades on a CS.

The best way to sharpen the chain depends on the proverbial "length of a piece of string".
All the way from:
If you do a lot of cutting and go through a lot of chains it will pay to buy a half dozen chains and a grinder.
TO
If you are handy and willing to learn and practice then just use a file freehand.

I recommend the Oregon file guide or a Carlton File-O-Plate, and practice and then you can eventually move to freehand.

Don't let people tell you grinders are a lot quicker, they're not that much quicker for touching up. I can touch up a 92 cutter chain on a 42" bar about as fast as I can take the chain off the bar and use a grinder.

Where grinders come into their own is when a chain is damaged and the cutters need to be brought back to the same length.

As for how to do it this is THE best document on the web about how chains work and how to set the rakers correctly.
http://www.sawchain.com/images/complete%20book.pdf

i picked up my new ms391 stihl today ,it will be used around here cutting trees etc ,and was wondering if it could be used on a small alaskan to mill small..250-.300 logs,any advice would be greatly appreciated................bob

I would mill with a 390 on an "occasional use basis only". Bear in mind that a CS will turn .250 - .30 logs into a lot of sawdust and anything that small should really be milled with a bandsaw.

Hmmm where to start, ok the first manufacturer to come up with a chain and sharpener system like what Oregon are claiming to have pioneered with this new system was, believe it or not, STIHL, and it is not a new thing. This setup is a novelty thing and is really only suitable for the housewife using a toy saw for pruning a few sticks off the rhododendrons, or trimming an unruly rose bush. Both stihl and oregon only supply bars and chains up to 16 inch in this setup.


Next thing is to Robyn, yes the 391 would be capable of milling those size logs but as BobL has said, you will waste a lot. A 391 will drive a 25 inch or 63 cm bar but honestly you should have looked at the 361/362 or maybe a 381. the 361 although slightly smaller ccs is a higher powered saw and is the first of the stihl PRO forestry range and these are built to a higher standard and are designed to perform better for a lot longer. I have a lot of people ask me what saws they should buy and I always tell them to buy the pro range saws not the farm bosses as the small amount extra you pay is definetly worth it. As for sharpening, filing is quick easy and once you have some practice you will get very good results, just look at the angles of the chain and make sure that after you file a tooth it looks the same but sharp and that all of your cutters remain equal in length. if you have sharpened the chain a couple of times file a little bit off of the raker, this keeps the chain cutting nice chips instead of making dust, as you will be using stihl chain the top plates should have the correct filing angle on them and the rakers should have a line scribed on them to show you the correct shape to file to and the maximum depth you should file to when the chain is sharpened as far as it can be, basically when the top plate is filed to the scribed line the raker should be filed to the scribed line.

Next thing is to Robyn, yes the 391 would be capable of milling those size logs but as BobL has said, you will waste a lot. A 391 will drive a 25 inch or 63 cm bar but honestly you should have looked at the 361/362 or maybe a 381. the 361 although slightly smaller ccs is a higher powered saw and is the first of the stihl PRO forestry range and these are built to a higher standard and are designed to perform better for a lot longer. I have a lot of people ask me what saws they should buy and I always tell them to buy the pro range saws not the farm bosses as the small amount extra you pay is definetly worth it. As for sharpening, filing is quick easy and once you have some practice you will get very good results, just look at the angles of the chain and make sure that after you file a tooth it looks the same but sharp and that all of your cutters remain equal in length. if you have sharpened the chain a couple of times file a little bit off of the raker, this keeps the chain cutting nice chips instead of making dust, as you will be using stihl chain the top plates should have the correct filing angle on them and the rakers should have a line scribed on them to show you the correct shape to file to and the maximum depth you should file to when the chain is sharpened as far as it can be, basically when the top plate is filed to the scribed line the raker should be filed to the scribed line.[/QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more Travis, (although I am more a Husky man I admit).
We have just received a brand new Stihl 391 for our Local Volunteer Fire Brigade. To put it mildly it is a plasticy toy and I am unimpressed with its performance. While it may run a 25" bar it would be working damn hard I would have thought - particularly if one were not too good in the sharpening department.
Still miles ahead of a Baumr Ag and their likes though

Stihl MS391: 64.1cc, 3.3kw, 6.6kgs

Stihl MS362: 59cc, 3.4kw, 5.9 kgs

Stihl MS381: 72.2cc, 3.9kw, 6.6kgs. These are basically the old 038 and were dropped from the stihl lineup in australia for a couple years, and I believe that they are actually made in brazil or mexico, Due to the fact that some Australian sellers, insisted on importing them aside from stihl Australia because they were a popular saw. I believe stihl picked them up again due to this fact. They are quite well priced saws, however unless stihl has upgraded the air filter system on them you will find it a bit of a let down. However they give similar power and weight to the ms441 at a discounted price. The 441 is a quicker saw in most regards though, and the 460 is even more saw at the same weight and not much more in price than the 441. Both stihl and Husky are going to the stratospheric engines like the ms 441 and husky 572 i think it is and at the present time the power to weight of these saws is not as good as the non strato saws, this should be starting to improve however.

Originally Posted by Travis Edwards

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Stihl MS381: 72.2cc, 3.9kw, 6.6kgs.
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Both stihl and Husky are going to the stratospheric engines like the ms 441 and husky 572 i think it is and at the present time the power to weight of these saws is not as good as the non strato saws
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I dunno, the 441 is 70.7 cc and generates 4.1 kW, so I wouldn't call that too shabby.
The 460 is 76.5 cc for 4.5 kW , is pretty similar.
Both are 6.6kg.

Although the the 460 will out cut a 441 the 460 also uses much more mix in doing so.
The newer saws are also optimized for reduced emissions - the fact that they do this and still maintain similar power to weight ratios to previous generation saws is not a bad effort.
If the 441 is given a basic muffler mod and re-ported to use the same amount of mix as the 460 it will keep up with a 460. Both saws can be extensively modded to get a lot more out of them but that will generally take them out of the reliable workhorse range.

A lot of (mainly old school) operators don't like the 441 because it feels too mushy and I agree that if you are used to the power vibe the 460 generates it will feel like that. I like using a 460 because it feels like a junior 660 but after using the 441 for a couple of hours I noticed that my hands and arms were nowhere near tingling as much as when I used the 460 or 660. I always wanted a 460 and when I managed to pick up a near new 441 for half price I almost sold it and bought a 460 but I'm glad I didn't. I have an 066 for bigger stuff and the 441 works great in the intermediate range. I also run my 441 with the lo-profile 0.050 3/8 chain which helps it sneak thru the wood a little quicker.

All that aside the 660 is still my overall favorite saw to cut with.

Originally Posted by BobL

I dunno, the 441 is 70.7 cc and generates 4.1 kW, so I wouldn't call that too shabby.
The 460 is 76.5 cc for 4.5 kW , is pretty similar.
Both are 6.6kg.

Although the the 460 will out cut a 441 the 460 also uses much more mix in doing so.
The newer saws are also optimized for reduced emissions - the fact that they do this and still maintain similar power to weight ratios to previous generation saws is not a bad effort.
If the 441 is given a basic muffler mod and re-ported to use the same amount of mix as the 460 it will keep up with a 460. Both saws can be extensively modded to get a lot more out of them but that will generally take them out of the reliable workhorse range.

A lot of (mainly old school) operators don't like the 441 because it feels too mushy and I agree that if you are used to the power vibe the 460 generates it will feel like that. I like using a 460 because it feels like a junior 660 but after using the 441 for a couple of hours I noticed that my hands and arms were nowhere near tingling as much as when I used the 460 or 660. I always wanted a 460 and when I managed to pick up a near new 441 for half price I almost sold it and bought a 460 but I'm glad I didn't. I have an 066 for bigger stuff and the 441 works great in the intermediate range. I also run my 441 with the lo-profile 0.050 3/8 chain which helps it sneak thru the wood a little quicker.

All that aside the 660 is still my overall favorite saw to cut with.

I didn't say the 441 was a bad saw bob just that the stratospherics are still being improved upon, I reckon when stihl bring out the 442 or 461 (which I hear they already are) you will notice that the power to weight will be as good or better than it already is. Personally I was planning on getting the 460 but I am glad I didn't and got the 660, I used it most of the afternoon today and honestly with a 25 inch bar on it it was no harder on me than using the 034 with an 18 or 20 inch and far more powerful, the bit of extra weight is barely even noticeable unless you have to carry it some distance. Would buy a 660 over either of the 460 or 441 every day of the week. but any way the point I was trying to make is that for similar dollars to the 391 he could have gotten a better saw that would have performed better for longer. The list price for the 381 is only $50 more than the 391 and is quite a bit more saw, whereas the 441 is listed at $550 more, granted it is a lot more of a saw again as the 044 always was against the 038, But it also USED to be lighter.

The 361/362 comes in $150 dearer, and would be my pick in the range of saws around the same sort of price and performance that the 391 has. although it is now the 362, has gained 300 grams with the strato upgrade, and now looks GAY like the rest of the new generation saws.

STIHL - MS 362 link to the 362

Hunter McPherson - Chainsaws for Professional Use link to the 361 specs

Originally Posted by Travis Edwards

I didn't say the 441 was a bad saw bob just that the stratospherics are still being improved upon, I reckon when stihl bring out the 442 or 461 (which I hear they already are) you will notice that the power to weight will be as good or better than it already is.

Users will focus on power and weight, but EPA and govts continue put pressure on emissions from small two strokes so I'm not sure there will be any improvements. CS manufacturers have nothing left to offer in the power department without affecting emissions and weight gains can only be made via exotic materials which are still too expensive. It would not surprise me if during the next 2 - 3 generations of saws, power to weight ratios level out or even decline, and at some stage that smaller two stroke motors will be banned in some areas.

Personally I was planning on getting the 460 but I am glad I didn't and got the 660, I used it most of the afternoon today and honestly with a 25 inch bar on it it was no harder on me than using the 034 with an 18 or 20 inch and far more powerful, the bit of extra weight is barely even noticeable unless you have to carry it some distance. Would buy a 660 over either of the 460 or 441 every day of the week.

I agree - If I could only have one saw it would be the 660.

. . . but any way the point I was trying to make is that for similar dollars to the 391 he could have gotten a better saw that would have performed better for longer.

Agreed -

I am not sure that I agree that power levels will level out or decline that quickly, the same was said about motorbikes, but now the four strokes are putting out more than the older larger 2 strokes I.E. 450cc four strokes now rev and perform just as hard and are lighter than the previous 500cc 2 strokes. And now despite everyone thinking the 2 stroke was dead there are manufacturers bringing back even more powerful 2 strokes of smaller ccs which are more than capable of eating the older big power 2 strokes with emissions as good or better than the equivalent four strokes. I would like to see a saw which incorporated some of these technologies both four and 2 stroke as I feel that there is still a lot more to come and this new series of engines that husky and stihl are bringing online are just the start.

They still look gay though especially those plastic fantastic huskies....lol

Originally Posted by Travis Edwards

I am not sure that I agree that power levels will level out or decline that quickly, the same was said about motorbikes, but now the four strokes are putting out more than the older larger 2 strokes I.E. 450cc four strokes now rev and perform just as hard and are lighter than the previous 500cc 2 strokes. And now despite everyone thinking the 2 stroke was dead there are manufacturers bringing back even more powerful 2 strokes of smaller ccs which are more than capable of eating the older big power 2 strokes with emissions as good or better than the equivalent four strokes. I would like to see a saw which incorporated some of these technologies both four and 2 stroke as I feel that there is still a lot more to come and this new series of engines that husky and stihl are bringing online are just the start.

They still look gay though especially those plastic fantastic huskies....lol

Realistically speaking, I wonder how much of a problem 2 stroke chainsaws are emmission wise. Whilst their plume of oily exhaust is very visible they really must be a miniscule source of pollution compared to other sources.
A very well educated and astute, (BObL type) gentleman I know calculated the relative comparison of emissions between burning green waste in your back yard and taking it to the local waste transfer station for disposal and found that there were greatly increased emmissions caused by the latter option, which on the face of it appears to be the more responsible option.
How many litres of 2 stroke can one saw burn in a day? Far less I would suggest than the car that was driven to the operations site or the excavator loading the logs, or the truck hauling the logs away. Of course operator safety cannot be discounted, breathing excessive amounts of exhaust cannot be healthy.
Yes I think I shall use my chainsaw and sleep soundly at night.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

Realistically speaking, I wonder how much of a problem 2 stroke chainsaws are emmission wise. Whilst their plume of oily exhaust is very visible they really must be a miniscule source of pollution compared to other sources.
A very well educated and astute, (BObL type) gentleman I know calculated the relative comparison of emissions between burning green waste in your back yard and taking it to the local waste transfer station for disposal and found that there were greatly increased emmissions caused by the latter option, which on the face of it appears to be the more responsible option.
How many litres of 2 stroke can one saw burn in a day? Far less I would suggest than the car that was driven to the operations site or the excavator loading the logs, or the truck hauling the logs away. Of course operator safety cannot be discounted, breathing excessive amounts of exhaust cannot be healthy.
Yes I think I shall use my chainsaw and sleep soundly at night.

Good point Karl, I recently read that the current pollution output of all 2 stroke appliances (chainsaws, brushcutters, blowers etc.) is less than 0.002% percent of total emissions per year world wide!!!! less than 0.002%. if the total percentage of that was reduced by 70 percent then it would come back to oh maybe 0.0019%. This is why I keep my saws well tuned, sharp and I run premium non ethanol fuel with synthetic lubricant and good quality BIODEGRADABLE bar oil. Honestly the recent eruption of the volcano in iceland totally negated all of the benefit done by everyone in the world in the last 5 years who have used light globes which shine with #### colour and turned their aircons off on those 45 degree celsius days to reduce carbon emissions. The amount I use my chainsaw per year is more than made up for by the carbon I preserve by not letting usable timber go to green waste or be burnt, and even more so with the plants I grow each year!!!!

Originally Posted by Travis Edwards

Good point Karl, I recently read that the current pollution output of all 2 stroke appliances (chainsaws, brushcutters, blowers etc.) is less than 0.002% percent of total emissions per year world wide!!!! less than 0.002%. . . . .

Ah yes - this is the line taken by 2 stroke appliance manufacturers BUT there are millions of other two strokes on the planet in the form of motorcycles, scooters and the myriad of 2 stroke vehicles used in third world countries, and there is good reason to do something about them and it has nothing to do with CO2 emissions.

The emissions we need to worry about are particulate matter (PM) or smoke. The use of efficient smoke scavengers in two stroke lube has removed most of the visible evidence of PM to the point where two strokes look like they are running real clean but to some extent these lubes have just transferred the visible PM to the invisible PM, and if you can't see it, it's not there, right? (this is why I don't promote more luge as better - it just comes out as invisible smoke)

Here is an interesting graph showing the relative PM emitted by two strokes.


A, B and C represent 3 different <170 cc road US motorcycles - they make 5 - 10 times more PM than a Tier 1 diesel vehicle (small low emissions turbo diesel car like a VW golf or Beetle).
Off road US motor cycles make 20-30 times more PM than a tier 1 car.
Remember these are all US regulated bikes, (some measure of regulation, well maintained, tuned etc).
Now think of all those millions of non-regulated poorly maintained 2-strokes, running crap fuel and lube sitting in 3rd world traffic jams right now - cough - cough - we do after all breathe the same atmosphere.

In short, "Houston - we have a problem", and and whether we like it or not CS are lumped in with all other 2-strokes.

Originally Posted by BobL

Ah yes - this is the line taken by 2 stroke appliance manufacturers BUT there are millions of other two strokes on the planet in the form of motorcycles, scooters and the myriad of 2 stroke vehicles used in third world countries, and there is good reason to do something about them and it has nothing to do with CO2 emissions.

The emissions we need to worry about are particulate matter (PM) or smoke. The use of efficient smoke scavengers in two stroke lube has removed most of the visible evidence of PM to the point where two strokes look like they are running real clean but to some extent these lubes have just transferred the visible PM to the invisible PM, and if you can't see it, it's not there, right? (this is why I don't promote more luge as better - it just comes out as invisible smoke)

Here is an interesting graph showing the relative PM emitted by two strokes.


A, B and C represent 3 different <170 cc road US motorcycles - they make 5 - 10 times more PM than a Tier 1 diesel vehicle (small low emissions turbo diesel car like a VW golf or Beetle).
Off road US motor cycles make 20-30 times more PM than a tier 1 car.
Remember these are all US regulated bikes, (some measure of regulation, well maintained, tuned etc).
Now think of all those millions of non-regulated poorly maintained 2-strokes, running crap fuel and lube sitting in 3rd world traffic jams right now - cough - cough - we do after all breathe the same atmosphere.

In short, "Houston - we have a problem", and and whether we like it or not CS are lumped in with all other 2-strokes.

Agreed BobL, herein lies the problem. The other sources of 2 stroke emissions that you mention are definate candidates for 4 stroke engines.
I do not see a 4 stroke chainsaw making significant inroads for some time, although one day it will happen no doubt.
The world will change no doubt and we shall be forced to dance to the tune prescribed by our leaders.
My only hope is that we move forward, (chain brakes and anti vibration were once scorned by many) and not backward - FICHT fuel injection for example.