Thread: Chainsaws - petrol powered v cordless

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

What is the safety mechanism to prevent you running with saw out of bar oil (other than signs of overheating) ? Just observation of the reservoir?

Yes.

Keen to finish the job this morning to see what sort of sharpening job I did.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Brett
You have in your post raised a point I had never considered with an electric saw and it is that of bar oil.
Petrol saws are designed so that the fuel and the oil run out at the same time or preferably the fuel a little ahead of the bar oil. What is the safety mechanism to prevent you running with saw out of bar oil (other than signs of overheating) ? Just observation of the reservoir?

I have serviced had a dozen different electric CS and have never seen such a mechanism, but nearly all the ECS I have serviced have clearly been run without oil at one time or other.

FF, a chains should be touched up regularly (after about every tank full of fuel) or ~30 minutes of cutting rather than let go to the point of getting blunt.
There should be no problem with pushing the recommended file size through and there should be no need to use a smaller file size first.
I'd say the chain is not the size referred to in the manual.

Using the same number of strokes per cutter is irrelevant.
The most important filing parameters on a cutter is to maintain the necessary angles and to remove any glint or chips on the edges of the cutter.

Even brand new chair have some glint on their cutter edges
New.jpg

Chip
Ripchip.jpg

Most folks also forget to file the rakers.

These should be lowered progressively using the gullet as an indicator of how far below the cutter the raker tops should be.
An approximate guide is the raker depth should be 1/10th the gullet width.
On softwood or more powerful saws instead of using 1/10 something like 1/9 or 1/8 can be used.
The standard raker filing jig provided with most saws only provides for a constant raker depth of 25thou which is increasingly insufficient as the cutter wears.

If this progressive method of raker filing is used the recommendation of filing all the cutters to the same length is far less of an issue.
I have not bothered making the cutters equal length on my chains since I adopted this method in 2008.

Originally Posted by ian

Hi John

given that the OP is a turner and is looking for a small chain saw to cut bowl blanks and the like either in his shed or back yard, I'm curious why you advise

BTW, I fully agree not to skimp on quality.

Less torque so they bottom out sooner and the batteries do not last that long meaning that if you are doing a lot of cutting then you are replacing/charging batteries often. You say "I will only be doing the odd job" but more often than not that "odd job" turns into a marathon effort and you regret that you did not get a petrol saw.

John

If you are actually cutting "in the shed" then get a bandsaw. I bought a really nice 14" second hand in good nick for $80.

John

It has been mentioned that gas powered chain saws will last a lifetime.
This might have been more likely in the past when saws were made to last but these days cheaper gas powered saws are no better than cheap electrics and the lack of parts availability becomes a problem.
Even the Stihl 180, which is a gutsy little saw, but it is still Stihl's effort at competing with the el cheapo DIY/homeowner market so is only lightly built and has a lot of plastic on it.
If you want a gas powered saw to last a life time then you need to look at the professional level saws like a 290.

I disagree that an electric powered chains saw has less torque than an equivalent power gas powered saw.
An electric motor has considerably more torque at lower rpm (especially at really low RPM) than an equivalent gas motor which is one reason why electric chainsaws may not be stopped by chainsaw chaps.
When a chain saw chains cut through a set of chaps, the chain tears out the long strings of fibres inside the chaps which jams the motor and very rapidly drops the RPM.
On a gas powered saw, at low RPM the engine does not have enough torque to continue which stalls the motor.
On an electric saw the torque will keep shredding the chaps.
Extra protection against an electric saw can be obtained using thicker racing chaps but you need to be aware that they are very thick, hence hot and restrict movement, plus they cost a lot more.

Originally Posted by BobL

It has been mentioned that gas powered chain saws will last a lifetime.
This might have been more likely in the past when saws were made to last but these days cheaper gas powered saws are no better than cheap electrics and the lack of parts availability becomes a problem.

I can certainly attest to that Bob. I had a Mcullock (sp) and when I went to get it repaired there were no parts available since they had been bought out and all of the older models discontinued and the parts inventory scrapped.

John

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

You did very well to cut that amount of old timber with any saw let alone the electric model.

Paul I think you may have very temporarily, and completely inexplicably, confused me with Superman. Whilst the saw did only 1½ hours work, it was over about 3 or more with brushing off dirt, breaks, bludging, vaping, sucking down Grolsch, stacking and so on.

I measured the stack this morning, and it is indeed about 3/4 cube (actually spot on a cube minus the voids at the front of the stack).

Firewood 2.JPG Firewood 1.JPG

The sharpening job was quite ok, but I'm sure would be a little better with the correct dia file. (thanks for your thoughts there Bob). Today I cut the very last of the Mountain Ash, destined to become mountain ash. This was all the stuff that couldn't be split as it was, due to cross grain etc. It only amounted to ¼ cube extra but took about an hour as it all had to come down to small firebox size. Got to the very last block and had to resharpen again - easier this time as the teeth had been opened up last night for the slightly oversize file. Must get another chain and see if the local hardware has any decent 4mm files (maybe they have Oregon brand to go with the O chains as I'm pretty sure from memory that the files are made by Vallorbe, so they should be good).

Hi Brett

you wouldn't be using a metric file on an imperial chain now would you?

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Paul I think you may have very temporarily, and completely inexplicably, confused me with Superman.

Brett

Now you mention it I don't recall seeing your underwear on the outside.

What am I saying discussing men's underwear on a public forum? I suppose I could only compound this by discussing lady's underwear on a public forum . However if I am going to be hung, I know for which I would rather be condemned .

Still, an impressive pile of wood for an electric chainsaw and a mere mortal!

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by ian

Hi Brett

you wouldn't be using a metric file on an imperial chain now would you?

Actually hard to know in this case Ian. It depends on two things:
1. Whether we measure the size of the file as the blank, or as the cut - actually punched - toothed area. The blank is 4.5mm and the toothed area is 4.8, which could easily be 4.76mm or 3/16"
2. Whether or not Makita, or indeed the chain manufacturer, knows how files are measured (seriously). Given that the chain is Oregon brand, we can assume they are USA based (but maybe made just north west of here), and therefore Imperial. I still have the bag and will check for country of manu.

Actually three things:
3. I will check the manual again tomorrow to make sure I haven't mixed it up with another chain they mentioned (easily possible, even though I double checked it at the time). There were two files mentioned, 4mm and 4.5mm, for two different chains. There was nothing on the Oregon chain bag about file size required, which IMO is an omission.

The size of the file is only one of a number of parameters involved in optimising cutting performance on a chainsaw and it does not need to be an exact size and whether its imperial or the closest metric makes very little difference.
e.g. Chain grinder wheels, and square ground chain, which uses a trapezoidal file with flat surfaces, both produce straight sided cutting edges.

Size is one of two factors that determine angles 2 and 3 below, the other being the height the file is being held above the cutter.
The height of a round file can be controlled using a bar mounted file holder or using a file in a hand held guide made for a different file size.

Angles 2/3 below some time termed the "Hook or Rake" which together with 1 determine the initial bite and penetration of a cutter into the wood.
If top and side plate edges are dull or angled incorrectly and angle 1 is too shallow, penetration will be limited and dust is made
If these angles are two large, sharp edge cutters will produce significant vibration and bar and chain wear and may even stall the engine.

FilingAngles.jpg
For a full description of the above angles sets anyone interested can check these out here
CS Milling 101, Hints tips and tricks | Page 6 | Arboristsite.com

Ordinarily I wouldn't buy into Brett's request for pictures (post #25), but I thought an exception may be made here.

I was surprised at the extent of material available, although arguably some of it may not have been seen as appropriate.

However, this is a little tip for storage of your saw. I think it would suit electric better than petrol: Less likely to drip:

chainsaw girls.jpg

This is from the Stihl literature. I think the attire is ceremonial and probably it would be camo and kevlar when it came to action.

chainsaw girls 2.jpg

Now before anybody screams sexism, I went looking for men with chainsaws and there was almost nothing. I confess I was a little relieved there . I can only conclude that chainsawing is a female preserve.

One final comment is that I briefly looked in on the olympics (trying to find out when the Bolt from Jamaica was running in the relay as I don't really follow what is going on). The broadcast was of the women's pole vault and the thought went through my mind that they were wearing a lot less than the girl using the chainsaw above so my deduction is they won't be cutting their own firewood .

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by BobL

On an electric saw the torque will keep shredding the chaps.
Extra protection against an electric saw can be obtained using thicker racing chaps but you need to be aware that they are very thick, hence hot and restrict movement, plus they cost a lot more.

This is why I hesitate to use my electric and mostly use one of my fuel saws.

And, although a bit quieter, electric chainsaws can still be heard from inside the house and by the neighbours.

Hand powered saws are another option for backyard jobs and give you a good workout as well, although it is getting hard to buy a good one-man crosscut or bucking saw, at least here in Australia.

Originally Posted by kenm46

I am a woodturner and in the market for a small chainsaw. I am looking at the Stihl brand (Model 180 for example) but want to know more about the battery powered models and how they compare for performance against the petrol engine chainsaws.

Can anyone offer any suggestions? I expect I will be using it mainly for cutting sawn logs, blocks of felled trees etc and mainly in my backyard ie residential area. Whilst noise is a consideration my priority is performance particularly with timber like very sell seasoned red ironbark, red gum etc.

Many thanks.

Don't buy a cordless chainsaw. If you do, it will end in tears. Guaranteed. They just aren't up to the task of regularly cutting large sectioned seasoned timbers. Where they DO excel, however, is as a safe, convenient lightweight builders saw, for trimming rafters for barge boards, roofing battens etc. in situ and in & around the garden for light pruning duties in hedges, shrubs & small trees and atop ladders, where a bigger gasoline saw would be unwieldy or dangerous, and corded circular or chainsaws will inevitably get tangled up with their cords.

Remember that a gasoline powered tool is also a form of "cordless" too. Just bigger, noisier, and (often) much more capable. I also believe that a properly trained, competent operator will be much safer using a chainsaw rather than a circular saw in many situations. I consider the circular saw to be one of the most inherently dangerous power tools of all, whereas a chainsaw is much less so.

I have a 36v saw (Bosch), which is used infrequently in the abovementioned roles, but only where either electrics or gasoline alternatives are unsuitable. Cordless saws, including circular varieties also, are really only light duty tools intended for occasional, intermittent use. Whilst modern battery technology has considerably narrowed the gap, they just aren't capable of performing miracles, at least not yet! A bar length of 300mm is the absolute max. they are capable of running, and even at that depth they often struggle to cut cleanly.

I also have had 3 professional level gasoline saws, 2 of which have been stolen over the years, which are used for cutting 20t odd of firewood per year, falling, slabbing with an Alaskan mill and even some pruning duties. The 2 biggest saws are probably much too big, powerful & noisy now for my ageing physique. The smallest (an 026) is incapable of only the biggest jobs I currently require. Maybe I will replace the stolen midsize saw one day (064), but with something 2 or 3 sizes smaller. I use 16" & 20" bars on the 026, 20" & 25" on the 064, & 30" & a 48" slabbing bar on the 090. They are all capable of running a size or 2 bigger bars respectively, but to do so is in my opinion stupidly dangerous & operationally unnecessary. They were & still are also all remarkably reliable too, despite all being purchased second hand, and being at least 25-40 years old.

Which brings me to the electrics. Inline saws are ergonomic delights to use in every way. The best of them, currently Makita & Husky are powerful 2kw saws only let down (perhaps) by using low profile 3/8" chain rather than the standard 3/8" chain used by more powerful gasoline saws. This is really only a concern when cutting the very biggest, woolly-barked trees at max capacity; i.e. logs of about 24-30" diameter, which is wholly unlikely in most domestic scenarios I suspect. 16" is about the optimum bar size for them given they use narrow bars & low profile chain. Quiet, convenient, reliable and safe.

My favourite saws are the MSE220c Stihls, which at 2200w are capable of surprisingly robust tasks. I use one each at my home & shack. Being sidewinders, they aren't as convenient, slimline or ergonomic as the other 2 I've mentioned, but they are in a different class of power again, being relatively more powerful than any of Stihl's Homeowner saws, all but the biggest of their "woodboss" saws, and even the smallest couple of sizes of "professional" saws too. I've even run a 30" slabbing bar & skip tooth chain on the Alaskan mill successfully through a dead walnut log too! The 2200w Stihl, and the very latest 2500w model use interchangeable "pro" chains & bars to the gasoline range of "pro' saws too.

The only thing "bad" about the electrics is the compromises inherent in having an attached cord & power supply.

Only you can really interpret what you're needs are. Only you can decide which type of tool most closely fits with your required solutions. I just hope I've provided a bit of help with the decision process, because at this sort of level, mistakes tend to become expensive!

Please also be mindful that all the tools I use and have described (apart from the "toy" cordless of course) are professional level and priced accordingly. If you choose to go "cheap" then that's exactly what you'll get: a cheaper tool, together with all the attendant advantages & disadvantage that implies.