Thread: How would an engine crane be for moving logs on and off a sawtable

What do you mean by a CSM? it could be Chain Saw Mill or Compound Mitre Saw.

If its a compound mitre saw what size blade are you looking at?

A 1000 kg log x 2 m long has a radius in the region of of 400 to 600 mm - you will need a bloody big blade to cut these sizes.

Also once the engine crane is holding a 1000 log it will not be that easy to move unless the floor is clean and smooth

Assuming your saw issues are sorted, rather than fork out for a engine crane maybe you could use the tractor/cables/pulleys to pull the logs up either steel or timber sliders onto the table?

Originally Posted by BobL

What do you mean by a CSM? it could be Chain Saw Mill or Compound Mitre Saw.

If its a compound mitre saw what size blade are you looking at?

A 1000 kg log x 2 m long has a radius in the region of of 400 to 600 mm - you will need a bloody big blade to cut these sizes.

Also once the engine crane is holding a 1000 log it will not be that easy to move unless the floor is clean and smooth

Assuming your saw issues are sorted, rather than fork out for a engine crane maybe you could use the tractor/cables/pulleys to pull the logs up either steel or timber sliders onto the table?

CSM in a small timber milling forum definitely Chain saw mill But I like the idea of plonking down a big lump of green eucalypt and going straight to a big bevel using a compound mitre saw! You can use pi x r squared x length x density to compute the weight of a log with minimal taper. Many green timbers are about 1 tonne/m3 so a 1 tonne log at 30cm radius will be about 3.5m long. I did think of using pulleys on a strong point but that would require a strong point. Pulleys off a tractor across some kind of roller are also possible but depends on access to the area as to where the tractor could go. Snigging with a tractor could drop off at the front of the shed from where an engine crane could possibly pick it up and wheel it around onto the sawtable. As I have never used an engine crane this may be one of the sillier ideas this forum has ever seen but you don't know if you don't ask!

Whilst I am not a miller ..... I do have an engine crane

As Bob mentioned you will need a smooth concrete surface to move the engine crane around on, particularly when it is loaded. That being said when they are loaded and have a smooth surface they do move around well. The legs extend out the front quite some distance which may need to be considered if you are planning to drop the load onto a bench or the like. You may need to have clearance under the bench to roll the crane under.

Given the length of the logs it may be necessary to build a load leveller to support the logs closer to the ends. In order to carry the heavier weights the boom arm of the crane needs to be retracted which may limit the diameter of the log as it is closer to the crane frame and jack, this may not be an issue but would be worth considering.

Many green timbers are about 1 tonne/m3 so a 1 tonne log at 30cm radius will be about 3.5m long.

Sure, but you said 1.8m long in your post so that makes it 40 cm for green and ~60 cm for dry.

The easiest way to use a chainsaw mill is to just lift one end of the log up an more than the other and let the CSM mill on a downward slope.

If the log is only a 30 cm diameter log then your tractor will be able to lift one end and then the other.

If your tractor can't do it then something like a modified kangaroo jack will.
It is also much easier to use on uneven soft ground than an engine hoist.



If everything is on song a slope means no or minimal pushing the CSM.
It doesn't look like there is much slope on this one but the ground was already sloping under this log.
Than log was originally about 900 mm in diameter at the thin end and 1.2m wide at the other.



With big logs like the one above I mill a couple of slabs with the log on the ground and then lift the ends of the log up progressively as I take more slabs off.
If you used a fixed height table then some logs will be too high to mill and you won't be able to slope the log.

Originally Posted by BobL

Sure, but you said 1.8m long in your post so that makes it 40 cm for green and ~60 cm for dry.

The easiest way to use a chainsaw mill is to just lift one end of the log up an more than the other and let the CSM mill on a downward slope.

If the log is only a 30 cm diameter log then your tractor will be able to lift one end and then the other.

If your tractor can't do it then something like a modified kangaroo jack will.
It is also much easier to use on uneven soft ground than an engine hoist.



If everything is on song a slope means no or minimal pushing the CSM.
It doesn't look like there is much slope on this one but the ground was already sloping under this log.
Than log was originally about 900 mm in diameter at the thin end and 1.2m wide at the other.



With big logs like the one above I mill a couple of slabs with the log on the ground and then lift the ends of the log up progressively as I take more slabs off.
If you used a fixed height table then some logs will be too high to mill and you won't be able to slope the log.

Ahhh, that explains the confusion. I said lift up to 1.8m meaning height. Anyway, with the provisos mentioned it sounds like an engine crane would be feasible.

I use an engine crane to move slabs from my ute to the stack. The attached photos are before I got my slings for lifting that makes it a heap easier, but you get the idea. I have also used it for moving logs about the carport/yard where there is a hard surface.

Keep in mind the maximum lifting height is with the maximum boom length, which means minimum lifting capacity (for mine 0.5t), but fine for slabs. My max lift capacity is 1.25t, but with a 0.5m shorter lifting boom. You also have to have sufficient room under your car/whatever, as the legs extend past the lifting point, but mine works well. They have steel wheels and you do need to ensure there is nothing to stop the wheels (ie gravel/bark etc). Certainly easier on smooth surface, but I have also used it on the uneven asphalt at my place, with a bit more effort.

For milling, I have a log lifter similar to Bob's.

As mentioned before, engine cranes have a series of lift points along the boom, each labelled with their safe load. At the tip of the boom, capacity might be 250 - 300kg and you could probably obtain a 1.8m boom height. However this would rarely get you a load height better than 1.6m to the top of the load due to the required tackle to support the load. Obviously, the bottom of the load would be correspondingly lower.

Typically, the generally available and cheap cranes are rated around 1.25 or 1.5t, and the 1t lift point would be well inboard from the tip. This has three consequences, there is a lot of overhang of base and boom that needs to pass above and below the load in order to make the connection, the load is hung close to the lifting ram and may clash with it particularly if the lod sways during movement, and the lift point maximum height is significantly lower than it is at the tip, while the rigging tackle and load are not getting proportionately smaller, so the maximum elevation capacity reduces rapidly.

The other issue to take into account is the units have a long narrow base and are designed to support a concentrated load hung along the centreline of the base, not a distributed load extending significantly beyond the width of the base. Base stability would be marginal when suspending a long distributed load accross the base, which is how I presume you intend to use the device for positioning logs.

Mai

Wow! There's some really good comment in these posts.

Something else you might like to ponder is that most mobile lifting devices travel with their load lowered (forklifts and front end loaders) for stability and safety. To travel safely, without becoming pedantically fanatical and invoking WPHS, you would need to drop the logs down onto the lower arms of the crane and then you could move it around safely.

Just thinking a little outside the square for a moment, you haven't really described the situation. Are you in the garage on a domestic block or is is a farm style shed? If it were the latter, I would look at a boom crane mounted on a steel pole and strategically placed so it could unload from a vehicle and swing (probably 180deg) on to a roller trestle or something similar for positioning.

An engine crane might be alright for a one-off and assuming you already had such a device, but I think it would become irritating for your purposes long term.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Mai

Wow! There's some really good comment in these posts.

Something else you might like to ponder is that most mobile lifting devices travel with their load lowered (forklifts and front end loaders) for stability and safety. To travel safely, without becoming pedantically fanatical and invoking WPHS, you would need to drop the logs down onto the lower arms of the crane and then you could move it around safely.

Just thinking a little outside the square for a moment, you haven't really described the situation. Are you in the garage on a domestic block or is is a farm style shed? If it were the latter, I would look at a boom crane mounted on a steel pole and strategically placed so it could unload from a vehicle and swing (probably 180deg) on to a roller trestle or something similar for positioning.

An engine crane might be alright for a one-off and assuming you already had such a device, but I think it would become irritating for your purposes long term.

Regards
Paul

Thanks for the comments, Paul. And to everyone else as well. There's a load of great experience and knowledge in this group. To answer Paul's question, on our block in Gippsland we have a good sized shed (20m x 10m). For timber processing I could put a concrete floor in one of the bays and have a relatively permanent sawtable set up. Hence the interest in moving timber around both as log and as cant, flitch and slab. I guess I'm looking for the right blend of safety, cost and ease of use.

For anyone interested in seeing a log arch used in small scale harvesting this document has some good photos. Not sure about using an ATV as against a tractor, however. Tractors can be dangerous but ATV's seem to have a tendency to roll. http://www.dnr.state.md.us/forests/pdfs/WWI.pdf Although this is a US study there's some other relevant info in this document. It highlights the higher value returns from good quality timber in larger logs compared to smaller lower quality stuff.

How enclosed is the shed?

I have operated a range of CSMs alongside and inside a number of sheds and found the noise levels increases considerably just operating a CSM near the wall of a shed, but it really increases when operating between two walls or under a roof. Inside a 3 sided shed is just awful. Even using the best Peltor ear muffs plus ear plugs the noise bypasses the muffs and goes through the skull into the inner ear.

Worse than the noise is the heat, dust and engine fumes.
If the shed is enclosed on 3 sides serious ventilation is needed to avoid inhaling the dust and fumes.
Two stroke lube is full of crap like smoke smoke suppressors that are invisible and not burnt and are not good to breathe in.
I guess wearing a dust/gas mask is a possibility but why add to the discomfort levels that are already part of using a CSM.
And finally, even if the shed is open on all sides the whole inside of the shed and everything in it will eventually get covered in wood dust.

You might be better off adding a concrete apron to the side or back of the shed and add a roof only "lean to" if you want to mill out of the weather.

If you are moving them in by tractor I would use a gantry and a block and tackle.

Much easier and safer in the long run.