Thread: Quality counts

Originally Posted by Travis Edwards

The "FAILURE" was not an unfortunate one, it is a typical one with these saws!!!

All I can say is "prove it". Yes everyone knows that these saws are not the best, quality wise, but I'm sure they have sold a metric ##### load of them and as I'm sure you are aware, you generally only hear about the failures ... not the ones that are working like they should.

The fact that it leaks the oil all over the floor of the shed is also a safety hazard...

Ah yes, it's failed AS/NZS1001 ... the "oil leak standard".

I know on the one I have if the brake handle was to fail as in the video the brake would not activate and if it did it would only be momentarily.

Again, prove it. Please feel free to show us you test results.

So as to your comment about it theoretically being as safe as any other saw YOU are seriously deluded.

You seem quite happy to comment on them being theoretically unsafe.

Either that or the sellers are paying you to go into bat for them!!!!

Yes that's exactly what going on. I guess you've run out of logical argument if you feel the need to make silly comments like that.

Sorry Travis, but your comments strike me as emotive rather than balanced ... and i don't blame you ... if I had bought one of those saws and it didn't work to my satisfaction, I would be off too.

Originally Posted by Vernonv

I think I understand perfectly, I just don't see how it makes these saw inherently unsafe. Yes the handles may break more easily than other saws, but at what level would these cheap saws have to perform before you say that these saws are safe ... is there a standard or is just your opinion?

There is no standard but I would expect that machinery manufacturers make their equipment to survive expected basic knocks. Just like the angle grinder guard , a CS should be able to be dropped from normal operating height ( ie waist high) and survive. If it can survive a 1m drop it should also cope with a 5 kg lump of firewood bouncing off the handle, or bouncing and rolling around in the back of a ute.

So I ask again, if someone devised a test that broke the stihl handle, would you then also lump stihl saws in with the cheapies and say that they are unsafe?

If it was within the range of normal operating conditions then I would call it unsafe. For example backing over a saw with a vehicle is not a normal operating conditions

It seems to me that you are saying that if a safety device could be broken, but still used, then the piece of equipment is inherently unsafe.

Yep - if a safety device was broken too easily under normal use conditions I would call that unsafe.

Originally Posted by BobL

if a safety device was broken too easily under normal use conditions I would call that unsafe.

Unfortunately that is very subjective, isn't it ... what is normal for one person, is not for another. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the definition of what constitutes "normal use conditions" and it's implications on the inherent safety of the saw.

Originally Posted by Vernonv

All I can say is "prove it"....., you generally only hear about the failures ... not the ones that are working like they should.


You seem quite happy to comment on them being theoretically unsafe.

Yes that's exactly what going on. I guess you've run out of logical argument if you feel the need to make silly comments like that.

Sorry Travis, but your comments strike me as emotive rather than balanced ... and i don't blame you ... if I had bought one of those saws and it didn't work to my satisfaction, I would be off too.

OK point 1. yes true you hear about the ones which are not working properly, The reason that you do not really hear about the ones that work properly is because there are not any, and the inexperienced operators do not even realise that when the fuel tank is empty the oil tank should be too and think it is normal that they only have to put oil in the oil tank every 4th tank of fuel. I have seen many and know quite a few people who own them and they all have had the same problems.

As for the "theoretically unsafe" comment there is nothing theoretical about the them being unsafe it is a FACT!!!! A fact that I myself have experienced on numerous occasions with numerous of these saws, which brings me to the point about you stating I must have run out of logical argument by saying that as "someone who does not have experience (by your own admission) with these saws" you are either deluded or receiving kickbacks. You seem very willing to go into bat for them despite having NO experience with them so how can you say that the people who have seen them and used them have less evidence as to their level of safety than someone defending them who has not???

My arguments are not Emotive at all aside from the fact that I feel the emotive need to warn unwary people of the fact that these products are rubbish and are potentially death traps.

I do not care if they do not want to honor warranty, I do not care that when you receive them they do not run properly, I do care that they are stating in their advertisements that they are worth as much as a professional grade name brand saw, as this is blatantly false advertising. But the biggest thing to me is that the products ARE unsafe.

I am not " off" about it to be honest I don't care, I didn't pay enough money for the thing to care about whether it blew up the day after I got it, but as I say I do care that inexperienced operators are buying these things. One of the reasons that the name brand saws cost a little more is to discourage every Tom, Dick, and Harry thinking "heck them chainsaws is cheap must be that any half brain would be able to use them" (say it in your best hick accent it becomes explanatory.) They work on the Phallus/wank factor, where they put a stupidly long bar on them and go "look how big it is, It has to be better than that slightly dearer one at the stihl or husky or whatever dealer that only has a 16 inch bar on a saw the same size!!!" and the stupid thing is the inexperienced fall for it.

The reason I bought one in the first place was not because I wanted it to be as good as my stihl, I did not even care if the thing ran backwards, like in the other thread about them. I bought it so that I could test it and give informed information on this forum and others and to other people I have had ask me about whether or not they should buy one. So EMOTIVE, I think not, INFORMED and EXPERIENCED might be getting closer to the mark.

Thanks Travis, but the bottom line is you are basing all your "experience" on ONE EXAMPLE and assuming every other saw and everyone else's experiences are the same as yours - but without the FACTS to back it up.

Yes, I have never used one of those saws, but with the FACTS presented in this thread (and others), it makes it extremely difficult (IMHO) to categorically proclaim these saws as unsafe.

Originally Posted by Vernonv

Thanks Travis, but the bottom line is you are basing all your "experience" on ONE EXAMPLE and assuming every other saw and everyone else's experiences are the same as yours - but without the FACTS to back it up.

Yes, I have never used one of those saws, but with the FACTS presented in this thread (and others), it makes it extremely difficult (IMHO) to categorically proclaim these saws as unsafe.

WRONG!!!! my experience is not just based on the ONE EXAMPLE, I have seen, used, fixed many of these loads of rubbish and the build quality of mine is no worse than any of the others I have had the displeasure of having to work on. They all have the same problems and are poorly manufactured to the point now if someone asks me how to fix them I tell them to throw it in the nearest skip bin and go and spend the little bit extra on getting a decent one. You really need to read the posts properly before stating that someone doesn't have the facts!!!

Even If I was basing my experience on the one example the mechanics of mine are not going to be any different to the one that came off the production line 10 before it or even 100 after it!!! agreed that fair enough mine may have been one of a few with a bad oiler (I know for a fact it is a common problem with them though!) big whoop It doesn't change the fact that the overall quality of the entire unit is sub par, and it guarantees that none of the others will be any better. And I have seen for a fact that it is true, as attested by the many others who have used and worked on them.

In total I would have in the last 12 to 18 months had at least 50 of them in my hands to work on and they are all of a similar quality, RUBBISH. So if this is not getting the facts I do not know what is.

So stop nipping my ankle...

Originally Posted by Travis Edwards

WRONG!!!! my experience is not just based on the ONE EXAMPLE, I have seen, used, fixed many of these loads of rubbish and the build quality of mine is no worse than any of the others I have had the displeasure of having to work on.

Fair enough, but poor build quality does not necessarily equate to lack of safety, just cheap and nasty (which I am not disputing).

So if you have seen so many, why did you bother to buy one to test?

Originally Posted by Travis Edwards

So stop nipping my ankle...

Is that your way of saying you don't like people voicing an opinion that differs to yours?

Is that your way of saying you don't like people voicing an opinion that differs to yours?[/QUOTE]
If I may be so bold as to speak on Travis' behalf, I would suggest that he is saying that in fact he has based his comments on experience with more than one saw and is not waging and emotive campaign, rather one of substance.
Anyway back to the real point.
The crux of the matter with these saws is that they are made to a definite price with no regard to acceptable standards, the fact that these things pass any sort of certification is another subject in itself. Given the poor quality of materials and workmanship exhibited I highly doubt, (no, I do not know for sure) that components such as the brake band will be of an adequate grade of steel to survive several applications at full throttle, will the spring that applies the brake lose it's tension over an extended period, for example I KNOW that Stihl and Husky chain brakes still work as they should at 20+ years. If you have ever disassembled a chain brake, you will be amazed at the work done by a comparatively small strip of metal and I promise you it is a lot higher grade than mild steel! I would also question the longevity of components such as the spark arrestor in the muffler, (remember, we live in the most bushfire prone continent in the world and to operate a chainsaw in State Forest during the fire season it is a legal requirement that there is an operable spark arrestor fitted, at least in Tasmania where I live). We have seen the poor quality of the fuel tank plastic, what is the potential result when it splits and spills 500mls of fuel over the operator which then ignites from a spark produced by the clutch rubbing, (a common fault as I understand). I know the potential as I have attended at least one fire caused by one of these saws, thankfully when the saw erupted the operator was able to throw it away and was uninjured, (6 people lost their Saturday putting it out and there was significant financial loss incurred). I wish I knew exactly what failed to caise the fire.
The low price and inflated advertising of the capabilities of these saws make them attractive to the very people who probably should not touch a chainsaw, (a generalisation I know, but in my experience an accurate one).
Murphy's law will dictate that any failure will occur at the worst possible time and anyone who has suffered or witnessed a chainsaw injury will know what I am talking about here, they are not pretty and often you do not get a second chance.
Already the "civillian" chainsaw operator is potentially working at a far lower safety standard than the pro, (no COMPULSORY chaps or other PPE, often working alone, no formal training and no wound dressing attached to your belt at all times), add in a saw with at best dubious quality and there is in my opinion unacceptable risk.
For the record, I am not a card carrying member of the Stihl appreciation fan club, i have never and most probably never will own a Stihl saw, I have used several in anger though and they did what they were meant to. I do however recognise their general build quality and inherrent safety features - just as any other reputable saw manufacturer.
If we accept the fact that the chinese fortune cookie saw that one receives in the post will pass all relevant safety tests, I don't accept this as a matter of intesest having handled several of these saws brand new. Do we still accept, given their reputation for monotonous failures, that the same saw will perform to an acceptable standard 6 or 12 months later. Remember it will not just be starters and oil pumps that crack under the pressure of use, other vital components will show equal or greater fatigue.
I am uncomfortable with the acceptance by some of a very low standard for chainsaws, far lower than we are willing to accept for electrical goods or motor vehicles, on or off road.

I am a fair minded man and I am more than willing to listen to any factual argument put forward as to how one of these saws has enriched anyones life or put a tool in the hands of someone who would otherwise have never been able to own a chainsaw, particularly if it can be shown that that person could not have acquired a second hand reputable saw that would have outperformed and been safer into the bargain.
Ask yourselves, if these saws are as good as they profess to be. Why have they not made inroads into the Government Agencies and private sector employers who have a need for casual use saws, (volunteer fire brigades landcare groups, work for the dole schemes) - simply you cannot rely on them in any way. Bottom line they will fail in some way at some time, the only variable is whether the hammer falls on a loaded chamber.

Originally Posted by Vernonv

Fair enough, but poor build quality does not necessarily equate to lack of safety, just cheap and nasty (which I am not disputing).

So if you have seen so many, why did you bother to buy one to test?



Is that your way of saying you don't like people voicing an opinion that differs to yours?

OK, vernon if poor quality or cheap and nasty manufacturing of every part of these machines does not mean that the safety devices are equally manufactured to the same standard then they are safe, just to agree with your OPINION. I do not care if someone has a different opinion to what I have, especially someone who has not gone out of their way to research the topic and wants to play devils advocate on a subject that they(by their own admission) have ABSOLUTELY NO knowledge in.

The reason I bought one is because at the time I had had little dealing with them and was possibly looking at importing them myself, however on finding how big a piece of crap they were and how UNSAFE they were that went out the window.

The comment about nipping at my ankle actually came from your signature about biting off more than you can chew and honestly you have in this thread. Hence the fact you are only nipping at my ankle and the last thing that did that got kicked 50 metres!!!!

thanks for going into bat Karl but it obvious that there are some tools out there that do not get the point no matter how hard it is beaten over their head.

Originally Posted by Vernonv

Fair enough, but poor build quality does not necessarily equate to lack of safety, just cheap and nasty (which I am not disputing).

So if you have seen so many, why did you bother to buy one to test?



Is that your way of saying you don't like people voicing an opinion that differs to yours?

OK, vernon if poor quality or cheap and nasty manufacturing of every part of these machines does not mean that the safety devices are equally manufactured to the same standard then they are safe, just to agree with your OPINION. I do not care if someone has a different opinion to what I have, especially someone who has not gone out of their way to research the topic and wants to play devils advocate on a subject that they(by their own admission) have ABSOLUTELY NO knowledge in.

The reason I bought one is because at the time I had had little dealing with them and was possibly looking at importing them myself, however on finding how big a piece of crap they were and how UNSAFE they were that went out the window.

The comment about nipping at my ankle actually came from your signature about biting off more than you can chew and honestly you have in this thread. Hence the fact you are only nipping at my ankle and the last thing that did that got kicked 50 metres!!!!

thanks for going into bat Karl but it obvious that there are some tools out there that do not get the point no matter how hard it is beaten over their head.

It must be a full moon !!! Owwwwwwoooooolllll
I'm thinking the German forestry dept who tested those saws would not have given them a pass because of the chain brake handle breaking off alone, those forces applied to those handles would seemed to be based on every day working conditions & not some far fetched numbers. If they were not durable enough for professionals for basic safety durability then where does that put joe blogs.
regards inter

Originally Posted by Travis Edwards

OK, vernon if poor quality or cheap and nasty manufacturing of every part of these machines does not mean that the safety devices are equally manufactured to the same standard then they are safe, just to agree with your OPINION. I do not care if someone has a different opinion to what I have, especially someone who has not gone out of their way to research the topic and wants to play devils advocate on a subject that they(by their own admission) have ABSOLUTELY NO knowledge in.

I may not be a self confessed expert, but I've used chainsaws extensively and understand their workings. I've also worked in the manufacturing and engineering fields, so understand what truly goes into a product to ensure safety and reliability (and can recognise the difference between the two). I also do not get taken in by sensationalised marketing. But you obviously feel that you are the only one truly qualified to comment on this particular subject.

Originally Posted by Travis Edwards

The comment about nipping at my ankle actually came from your signature about biting off more than you can chew and honestly you have in this thread. Hence the fact you are only nipping at my ankle and the last thing that did that got kicked 50 metres!!!!

thanks for going into bat Karl but it obvious that there are some tools out there that do not get the point no matter how hard it is beaten over their head.

Pffft. Grow up. Your previous comment was just your vain attempt to try and belittle someone who doesn't agree with you. Resorting to name calling is kind of sad, but I guess if that is all you have left, it's all yours. Good luck.

Cool it or I will lock this thread.

DavidG
Moderator.

Where to start? and I do'nt know if its appropreate to enter this thread and talk about baumr-ag, but about a different tool...
Here goes... I'm in the market for a concrete saw (repairs, modifications arround the house), looked at hiring, out of the question because of health I might manage 2 cuts a day by the time I'd finish, I'd own the saw factory!
searched the internet for about a month and their are'nt a lot of choices Husky's, Stihl, Makita and some House Brand Chinese specials whether on ebay or sold from Tool Shops.
Now having read this thread I would like the to mention that even your name brands are coming out of China the only difference is the parent company perminently posts its own engineers and quality inspectors to oversee the production. As an example, my quality USA brand Jet Q18 BS was made in China just down the road from were the home brand HAFCO rolls out I imagine. And just to add a bit of trivia... Those steel caps your wearing where made in china, the last Oz safety footwear manufacture (Sydney) offshored their manufacturing to mainland china in November 2004.
Well back to baumr-ag and the Concrete saw, I seemed to have found the source of the house name baumr-ag at www.lidetools.com or they look so alike they could be clones of a clone (baumr-ag) which is in itself a clone of the Husky 350/400.
But what I have not been able to find is any testimonials of anyone buying one and their performance, which I would dearly like to hear from?
At $439 (1/2 the cost of its rival HYCO a clone Stihl even down to the colour) I would like to consider it before I have to reluctently choice between a Makita, Husky or Stihl starting at $1200, $1600 and $1900.
Weighing between Safety, Realiability, Quality and Cost is the order I would like to think in..... Of cause the frying pan and the wife has a roll....

Cheers Cured.