Thread: Have the health Gurus got it wrong?

Originally Posted by artme

An interesting program on SBS last night "Should I eat Meat".

I think the debate still rages but one thing came out loud and clear. Saturated fat is not the problem. Lean red meat is a problem because of a compound in it that increases LDL in the blood.

Processed red meats are a problem because of chemical compounds not found naturally in the meat.

This is a very condensed version of what i gleaned from the program and I will be watching the second in the series next week.

Wouldnt be to concerned with LDL as its an outdated marker (my LDL is 4.1) Tri/HDL ratio is all you should be worried about

Just some of my thoughts on the great OP as this subject if very close to my heart.

Almost 4 years ago to the month I was extremely overweight, and in consultation with my GP was sent to a dietitian who gave the standard advice, eat a clean low fat/high carb (low GI) diet and most important stick to CICO (calories in/calories out) she also added the standard line, exercise more.

So I followed her advice to the letter and in the following 12 months lost around 8kg but still obese and feeling ordinary. The following 4-5 months were so frustrating because I was doing everything correct and weight loss had simply stopped and that included reducing daily calorie input.

So wanting a different approach I searched the net and it didn’t take long to find out about and enter the wonderful world of LCHF (low carb/high fat) I was staggered at the amount of scientific information on how “good” fat has never been the enemy and it has basically been grain and seed oil companies that have successfully brainwashed and changed the way Americans eat (then the rest of the world follow)
Vegetable/seed oil, high fructose corn syrup and GM wheat for the last 40 years have been the order of the day along with low fat/low salt everything.

So the science appeared simple, zero trans fats, vegetable/seed oil and margarine ect, and eating good quality saturated/monounsaturated and small amounts of polyunsaturated fats in the correct macro percentages is as likely to make you fat as eating green vegetables will turn you green.

So I immediately abandoned my dietitians advice and researched my new low carb high fat macros and jumped in head first. The result was a 10kg loss in the following 3 months and a further 10-14kg over the next 12 months (it fluctuates a few kilos here and there)

Apart from saturated fat the next best research I came upon and its supported heavily is, CICO, calories in/calories out is a total crock and myth. Different foods are metabolized in different pathways and with different thermal effects, and the foods we eat can directly affect the hormones that regulate when and how much we eat. Take home message- For me, never have to count calories again, and I don't.

For those wondering about my macros and cholesterol- my macros are 5% carb (because I am by choice in Nutritional Ketosis) 25% protein and 70% fat. My fat breakdown is around 40% saturated, 55% mono and 5% poly (for a good omega 6/3 ratio) and my cholesterol (from 5 weeks ago) Trigs 0.6 HDL 2.5 LDL 4.1 Average fasted BG 4.8-4.9 and average fasted Ketone level (by blood, not notoriously inaccurate urine strips) 1.6 - 1.8 and gets around high 2’s to low 3’s during feed times.

And with feed times, for the last 22 months I have been Intermittent Fasting (8/16) religiously every day with the only exceptions at night if I go out and have a few drinks. So I break my fast at 12pm usually with a huge plate of bacon and eggs cooked in coconut oil, and my last meal is around 7-7.30 and I then never eat after 8pm.

So the bonus for me, I consume a high fat diet that guarantees satiety, I am NEVER hungry, eat bigger meals than ever, and not only dropped over 30kg but for the first time in my life stable and eating what I want, and I cannot ever see it returning.

[Edit- I should add I eat an enormous amount of above ground greens and around 100g sweet potato a day and no starchy vegies, and all animal product as in meat/fat/butter ect is grass fed/free range. and i have a strict zero sugar and processed food policy]

Lignum, You've hit that nail directly on the head. There was a very good Catilyst program on the ABC a few months back focussing on the American corn syrup and food additive industry. Essentially they mounted a successful PR campaign which blamed the fat kids for not exercising enough. Thus avoiding their responsibility for the increase in obesity.

TT

Have a gander at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epxp_Viq484

Science requires empirical evidence. Understanding why we lose weight is key to successful dieting. All the scientific evidence of weight loss points to the same direction. Fad diets may work, but understanding how they work is crucial.

So calories in/calories out is not a crock or myth, its fact. Metabolism is how the body transforms certain organic materials, and of course metabolising foods requires energy. So fast or slow metabolism still consumes energy, just at differing rates. Physics is physics, like it or not.

Originally Posted by Lignum

Just some of my thoughts on the great OP as this subject if very close to my heart.

Almost 4 years ago to the month I was extremely overweight, and in consultation with my GP was sent to a dietitian who gave the standard advice, eat a clean low fat/high carb (low GI) diet and most important stick to CICO (calories in/calories out) she also added the standard line, exercise more.

So I followed her advice to the letter and in the following 12 months lost around 8kg but still obese and feeling ordinary. The following 4-5 months were so frustrating because I was doing everything correct and weight loss had simply stopped and that included reducing daily calorie input.

So wanting a different approach I searched the net and it didn’t take long to find out about and enter the wonderful world of LCHF (low carb/high fat) I was staggered at the amount of scientific information on how “good” fat has never been the enemy and it has basically been grain and seed oil companies that have successfully brainwashed and changed the way Americans eat (then the rest of the world follow)
Vegetable/seed oil, high fructose corn syrup and GM wheat for the last 40 years have been the order of the day along with low fat/low salt everything.

So the science appeared simple, zero trans fats, vegetable/seed oil and margarine ect, and eating good quality saturated/monounsaturated and small amounts of polyunsaturated fats in the correct macro percentages is as likely to make you fat as eating green vegetables will turn you green.

So I immediately abandoned my dietitians advice and researched my new low carb high fat macros and jumped in head first. The result was a 10kg loss in the following 3 months and a further 10-14kg over the next 12 months (it fluctuates a few kilos here and there)

Apart from saturated fat the next best research I came upon and its supported heavily is, CICO, calories in/calories out is a total crock and myth. Different foods are metabolized in different pathways and with different thermal effects, and the foods we eat can directly affect the hormones that regulate when and how much we eat. Take home message- For me, never have to count calories again, and I don't.

For those wondering about my macros and cholesterol- my macros are 5% carb (because I am by choice in Nutritional Ketosis) 25% protein and 70% fat. My fat breakdown is around 40% saturated, 55% mono and 5% poly (for a good omega 6/3 ratio) and my cholesterol (from 5 weeks ago) Trigs 0.6 HDL 2.5 LDL 4.1 Average fasted BG 4.8-4.9 and average fasted Ketone level (by blood, not notoriously inaccurate urine strips) 1.6 - 1.8 and gets around high 2’s to low 3’s during feed times.

And with feed times, for the last 22 months I have been Intermittent Fasting (8/16) religiously every day with the only exceptions at night if I go out and have a few drinks. So I break my fast at 12pm usually with a huge plate of bacon and eggs cooked in coconut oil, and my last meal is around 7-7.30 and I then never eat after 8pm.

So the bonus for me, I consume a high fat diet that guarantees satiety, I am NEVER hungry, eat bigger meals than ever, and not only dropped over 30kg but for the first time in my life stable and eating what I want, and I cannot ever see it returning.

[Edit- I should add I eat an enormous amount of above ground greens and around 100g sweet potato a day and no starchy vegies, and all animal product as in meat/fat/butter ect is grass fed/free range. and i have a strict zero sugar and processed food policy]

Intetsting thread, i am curious when it come to these things, just wondering with the high blood ketones, whether there is any muscle damage probably best seen as high cpk, this is what happens with the kids. We have to balance calories in/out enough that just enough that their bodies will use but not try to store it as glycogen the carbs are just to keep the blood glucose up, but the best "fuel" for them is protein and funnily enough fat(not prefered by us personally) as neither will convert to glycogen.

Originally Posted by Pearo

Have a gander at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epxp_Viq484

Science requires empirical evidence. Understanding why we lose weight is key to successful dieting. All the scientific evidence of weight loss points to the same direction. Fad diets may work, but understanding how they work is crucial.

So calories in/calories out is not a crock or myth, its fact. Metabolism is how the body transforms certain organic materials, and of course metabolising foods requires energy. So fast or slow metabolism still consumes energy, just at differing rates. Physics is physics, like it or not.

Sorry but that was a terrible made for TV docco, and whilst it appeared pro low carb was full of bad science. Fast forward to 22 minutes for the explanation of Ketosis and see what i mean.


If you want to know and understand the metabolic effect of calories/ketosis look no further than the great Peter Attia. If their is one bloke in the world i would want to share a slab of low carb beer with its him. He has the unique ability of explaining a complex subject for dummies like me.

This vid is a 100% must.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqwvcrA7oe8H

His blog is also a must read.
http://eatingacademy.com/start-here

Originally Posted by shedbound

Intetsting thread, i am curious when it come to these things, just wondering with the high blood ketones, whether there is any muscle damage probably best seen as high cpk, this is what happens with the kids. We have to balance calories in/out enough that just enough that their bodies will use but not try to store it as glycogen the carbs are just to keep the blood glucose up, but the best "fuel" for them is protein and funnily enough fat(not prefered by us personally) as neither will convert to glycogen.

Howdy Shed, good post, but i have no real knowledge of cpk or ck so i will leave that to someone here who hopefully knows, but in general Ketosis has no ill effect on muscle and its becoming extremely popular with distance sport like marathon, triathlons etc, but its no so favorable for shorter explosive sport like sprinting up to 400 meters or weightlifting.

A few notable athletes at the moment are Mitch Johnson, Dave Warner, Shane Watson and Micheal Clarke they are all LCHF Gary Ablett junior has been strict Paleo for over 4 years now. Their are also players at the Melbourne and Port Adelaide football clubs who are LCHF during the week and carb load match day.

Also both the Australian cricket and Melbourne football club doctors are LCHF and when Tim Noakes was here a few weeks back for Low Carb Downunder he addressed the players and staff at Melbourne. http://eliteperformancescience.wordp...-melbourne-fc/

But i am interested in the bold as its a fact around 65% of ingested protein is converted to glycogen. Its one of the reasons people like me who are in Keto limit protein as to much it knocks us out.

Also my keto levels of 1.5-3 isnt high, its optimal. The pic below is from Stephen Phinney who is considered the godfather of low carb/ketosis. He has been publishing scientific papers for over 30 years and is the man. His book "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living" is considered the bible on the subject. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP6DtqmZ3Mw

optimal-ketosis-range-2.jpg

[Edit, Phinney was also with Tim Noakes a few weeks back in St Kilda with Low Carb Downunder. It was sensational]

Originally Posted by artme

An interesting program on SBS last night "Should I eat Meat".

Also to watch next week is is Catalyst, Maryanne Demasi covers it so it should be balanced, and Shane Watson features talking about his ongoing struggle with weight until he drastically cut the carbs.


Catalyst Low Carb Diet - Fat or Fiction?

• 8pm - 8.32pm
• ABC
• Thursday

This program investigates the science behind the low carb diet. What are the health benefits and are there any risks? Is it suitable for everyone?

[Edit, the Low carb downunder facebook page has this to say- This episode was partially shot during our Low Carb Down Under Melbourne event on August 30th and is sure to be controversial.]
https://www.facebook.com/LowCarbDownUnder?fref=nf

Originally Posted by Lignum

but in general Ketosis has no ill effect on muscle and its becoming extremely popular with distance sport like marathon, triathlons etc, but its no so favorable for shorter explosive sport like sprinting up to 400 meters or weightlifting.

It is also popular with body builders who commence a strict no carb hi protien diet before a show. This strips of all the fat so they can show case their muscle structure.

TT

Originally Posted by Twisted Tenon

It is also popular with body builders who commence a strict no carb hi protien diet before a show. This strips of all the fat so they can show case their muscle structure.

TT

So true, and the interesting part is the gym/fitness guys and girls cop so much flack as stupid beefcakes, but the quality of nutrition they put in their mouth is generally second to none. If the majority of the Aussie population followed suit then we wouldn't be a nation of fat f...s