Thread: Sleep deprived

Hi Geoff,
I'm sorry you're going through this. I haven't had depression, so I'll let others with experience address that. I really only wanted to make one comment:

Given the choice between taking medical advice from my GP or a bloke at work, I'd go with the GP.

By 6pm in the evening I am often exhausted so I go to bed between 6:30 and 7:30pm most days. Last night I had an MRI at 8pm and would have fallen asleep in the scanner if that thing had not been so loud despite ear plugs and ear muffs.

When I go to bed i fall asleep almost immediately but then I wake up about every 90min to two hours with dry mouth so have a drink and also pee minuscule amounts. Each time I get up it became harder to get back to sleep and so by about the 3rd or 4th time (usually between midnight and 1pm) I am usually awake. I would then get up and have a cup of tea and fart around on the computer or stay in bed and put on earphones and listen to the radio or music, and continue to go to the loo every 90 mins or thereabouts. This would continue till about 4:30 when I get up and turn on the coffee machine. I might go back to bed and listen to the radio, maybe doze for a few minutes, but then I was up at 5am for my first brew and to feed the dogs. I reckoned I was getting about 6 hours of very broken sleep which is why I was so exhausted when I got up and lethargic during the day and would have a short grandpa naps mid morning and after lunch but they wore more of a doze than a sleep. I also found it hard to get much done during the day and to walk the dogs. This has been going on for at least 10 years.

I tried staying up later but ended up falling asleep in front of the TV and that just made me even more tired, I tried various medications including slow Melotonin via my GP but that made it worse, I went to see countless specialists about my peeing problem - nothing worked. This problem was especially exacerbated after my wife died so in desperation I tried practising meditation and this really helped both with the grief and my sleep. My sleep problems are far from cured but am not as exhausted when I wake up and some days I no longer have grandpa naps.

When I say practising meditation it's really more of a slow deliberate breathing/relaxation mind clearing exercise. Focus only on breathing in slowly in thru nose, hold breath for 2 sec and and then slowly out through mouth and hold for 2 sec. each breath should be between about 10-15 seconds long - don't worry about exact timing. I count my breaths - I started with 25 then started over again. It's called "practising" because you never get perfect at clearing your mind while doing this - it is entirely normal that your mind will lose focus and wander around, and you have to keep pulling it back into the breathing process. After a few days I was able to get to 50 continuous breaths and after a few weeks to 100 breaths.

Some people find guided meditation sound tracks easier to get started. I used the track in the 'Head Space" App for a couple of months and still occasionally use it. I started doing meditation before I started seeing a psych about my grief issues and she confirmed that I was doing the right thing. I was doing a lot more than this but its not relevant here so wont go into detail.

if you can do this is, every 100 breaths is ~1000 VERY valuable seconds where your mind is not running around like a blue arsed fly and gives your mind a decent and important rest. Even if you are still not sleeping you are gathering quality brain rest and you will have more brain power later in the day. Eventually - it can take weeks - this translated into general relaxation and enabled me to get back to sleep. If you do a couple of these 100 breaths a night your brain will feel heaps better even if you dont get much sleep.

I now use this meditation method in lots of laces. eg inside the MRI scanner last night - its noisy and claustrophobic and found it helped me cope with this. I also use it at the dentist, and if someone is giving me the %^$%'s

My mate uses a different sleep inducing approach and starts to name the parts of a large complex thing (he's a doctor and names parts of the skeleton, or parts of a car) and he reckons he never runs out of things before he falls asleep. This tricks the brain to focus only a specific subset of stuff and provides brain rest. I've tried it and it usually works for me but I reckon the breathing exercises are more beneficial.

These I still go to bed between 6:30 and 7:30 most days, still get up all the times to pee etc, but can usually get back to sleep easier using the breathing exercise if I need to. Just knowing I can bring out the meditation exercise if I need to often gets me back to sleep. I probably only get about 7 hours of sleep a night but it's much better quality and meanwhile have done several meditation/relaxation practises and they all help. This means I am able t take the dogs for longer walks and can get more done during the day. A pity my knees are paying up and restricting what I can do - there's always something hobbling my activity.

Geoff, what you are experiencing is pretty common. You don't say how old you are, but I would say that most in their later 60's and especially 70s experience this much of the time owing to an ageing prostate. Look into slow release Melatonin - let this be a decision between your GP and yourself.

Bob, if you are going to sleep around 6:30/7:00 p.m. and waking at 2 a.m., then you have had about 5 hours sleep. At our age, we tend to get by with 5-6 hours of sleep. In my case I am alert and active until midnight, and then sleep until around 7:00 a.m., but will awaken once in the earlier hours - sometimes twice and sometimes not at all (an "all nighter" means something different to those in their 70s! ). Try staying up later to shift your sleep cycle.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Geoff, what you are experiencing is pretty common. You don't say how old you are, but I would say that most in their later 60's and especially 70s experience this much of the time owing to an ageing prostate. Look into slow release Melatonin - let this be a decision between your GP and yourself.

Bob, if you are going to sleep around 6:30/7:00 p.m. and waking at 2 a.m., then you have had about 5 hours sleep. At our age, we tend to get by with 5-6 hours of sleep. In my case I am alert and active until midnight, and then sleep until around 7:00 a.m., but will awaken once in the earlier hours - sometimes twice and sometimes not at all (an "all nighter" means something different to those in their 70s! ). Try staying up later to shift your sleep cycle.

Thanks Derek.

RE; going to sleep around 6:30/7:00 p.m. and waking at 2 a.m. I make this closer to 7 hours than 5 provided I can get back to sleep quickly - and that was my problem. These days I can usually get back to sleep within minutes which makes a big difference.

I've tried staying up but if I'm by myself I'm asleep usually in front of the TV by say 8-8:30pm and that wrecks my whole night and next day. If I'm with others i can usually last till about 9 even 10 pm and then I still get up early and have a wrecked day. I have been told that trying to do it in one go is unlikely to work and it might be better if I time shift 10 minutes at a time over a few weeks? I keep meaning to try this.

Bob, I was obviously working with decimal hours, and not imperial hours, hence the 2 hours I missed!

Staying up later needs to be a deliberate decision and will take a little while before the pattern becomes automatic.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I think this problem goes with old age/general decrepitude (speaking for myself...). Going to bed too early is definitely part of the problem, but I've found both the slow release melatonin and another over the counter medication called Restavit to be a big help (also available as generics such as Sleep Right). Half a tablet of Restavit normally works for me, but everyone is different. A friend who uses Restavit takes a whole tablet, but I'd suggest starting with small dose and work up as required. TBH, I get better results from Restavit than melatonin.

I’ve had very similar for a number of years. Had radiation treatment for prostate cancer some years ago. I was recently put on medicinal cannabis for pain and related anxiety/stress issues. I take CBD25 capsules twice daily and TCH20BD1 oil before bed. I know sleep through most of the night. My smart watch records over twice the amount of restful sleep I used to record. I can’t drive or operate machinery within 8 hours of taking the TCH20. But that is not an issue. I used to compose poetry during those awake hours as a way of trying to get back to sleep. Not very successfully.

Sleep dear sleep, why hath thou abandon me.
I had to get out of bed and go and have a pee.
With bladder full and the fear of leak
‘‘Twas only the porcelain that I did seek


Yet upon the return to my cosy sack.
You did nothing to welcome me back
You made me lay wide awake upon my bed.
With these thoughts swirling around inside my head.


I did not kill that bird, neither albatross or crow.
For I own not a rifle least of all a crossbow.
Don’t hang it around my neck, a symbol of my shame.
It wasn’t me who did the deed for I am not to blame


Now I am a Mariner, an ancient one as well.
With no wedding to attend or stories to tell.
So wedding guest do not fear and listen like a child.
Any stories that I have are never quite so wild.


While there may not be a stir in the air or upon the sea.
A painted ship upon a painted ocean means little to me.
Once more unto the breach or fill the wall with dead.
Once more dear friends just let me sleep here upon my bed

On the occasions I have been unable to go back to sleep in the middle of the night, I start to count from 1,000 backward.
1000...999...998

It seems to focus the mind & I end up falling back asleep when I get down to 800-700.

Cheers
Yvan

"minus 541, minus 542, minus 543......."

obviously everyone's experiences are different and i'd recommend seeking the services of a GP is you're really struggling with it.

As for me normally when i wake up at night and can't get back to sleep, i'd go for a walk, doesn't need to be very far, go sit on the couch read a book take a sip of water and won't go back to bed till i know i'm ready. Sometimes it can be a few minutes sometimes hours depends on whats going through my head at the time. I also find making the environment conducive to a good nights sleep helpful, eg eat well/exercise, no caffeine/alcohol before bed etc. I also have a wife who likes to do odd things in the night like turn on the bedside lamp and forget to turn it off, for that i find a sleep mask.

Wishing you all the best, sleep deprivation is a tough slog

Relaxation/meditation apps can be very helpful for slowing your brain down. I like these ones for the iPhone. They are all free. You need a pair of comfortable earbuds.