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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsser View Post
    Yes, it's clear that the mind plays a large part in health and illness.

    There used to be the term psychosomatic illness - one caused by the mind - but that's been dropped from the manuals since it's not poss. to separate mind and body.
    I think there is a big part to be played by mind over matter and I believe it does exist. The questions for me are where exactly are the limitations and is it conscious or subconscious.

    Perhaps another way of looking at this would be attitude or mental approach to adversity. If you think you are sick, you pretty much are sick.

    I suspect the human body has much better abilities to self heal than we realise, but we do not know how to tap into this. As a result we rely heavily on assistence from drugs and other remedies. Possibly all these drugs and remedies do is allow the body to self heal.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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  3. #47
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    we know that placebo is effective. Sure it's nowhere near 100%, but there are no side effects, no expenses. Also, now the placebo effect has been extended into the world of surgery. In the book Biology of Believe by Bruce Lipton PhD there is a well documented case of operations on arthritic knees. There are two procedures that are believed helped people with debilitating knee pain: one involves removal of cartilage, another one is what can be simplified as rinsing of a knee joint. Each operation is to the value of $5000 or so and there are up to 600,000 operations like that performed annually worldwide. Three groups were sedated, first two got the usual procedure done, one with cutting another one with rinsing. The third group received "Fake surgery", where doctors acted as if they were operating per usual, but nothing was done except for three standard incisions on the skin and some water splashing. The first two groups improved as expected but amazingly so did the third group. The patients didn't find out about the "fake surgery" for two years and all of them were completely mobile and free of pain including people who had to use walking sticks before the operations.

    We love facts and statistics. We love the fact that 9 out of 10 users prefer nurofen, but we hate to see the fact that most of the headaches are caused by dehydration as a consequence of excessive consumption of diuretics like coffee and alcohol, as well as incorrect breathing and also perceived state of stress that is nothing but a choice.
    So going back to placebo. We need to concentrate on the fact that our body can do it. And I am not talking about curing the disease, I am talking about not providing fertile soil for disease to grow on in the first place. However, no one is going to do it for us, definitely not the big guys who make billions on us.
    food for thought, nothing else.. let's all take it easy

    Alex

  4. #48
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    Sorry I dont agree with that. You are putting the cart before the horse.
    People dont go around in gloom and doom in fear and trepidation about getting sick.when healthy.
    People smoke and tell themselves "It wont happen to me".
    Kids drive cars too fast in the belief they are immune from death.
    Only when illness strikes does it become an issue to deal with. Then, and only then do we choose the path we will follow, If that path is doom and gloom, our sucess rate will not be as good.
    Cancer is not a disease, it is the bodies normal regeneration of cells gone wrong and the immune system not spotting the mutation. We all replace countless cells each day and create many mutated cells. But usually they are spotted and gobbled up as duds. For some reason some slip through. In the end its luck with a few other things thrown in.
    Again, if you believe in evolution, mutation created us. So we should not complain too loudly when it goes astray, normally in our latter years. Is it not the game of chance and the price for life.

  5. #49
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    Agree. I don't however talk about people being full of fear of falling sick. They are however full of things like anger, guilt, regret and also fears such as of not being accepted, of not being understood, of failure, of intimacy, lack of self respect, poor self esteem and so the list goes. Most of those things will cause stomach upset, gastric reflux, elevated blood pressure, skin rashes, headaches etc. Well basically all the stuff that we are so used to experiencing day in and day out and dealing with with pills and creams and what not. Depending on the level of severity of those emotions discomforts can be more or less serious. After years of exercising those poor actions and thought patterns the consequences tend to be more severe as years go by and the body wears out, turning . All this stuff can be avoided by making better choices in the moment, which can be achieved in the bulk of population through the miracle of education, I believe that's where most of the efforts need to be applied.

    Alex

  6. #50
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    Your post speaks volumes. It is your explanation to yourself why you wont get sick. Sure if you live a carefree life and do the good stuff etc you may live longer. But man has evolved to do as he does, we cant all live the carefree, someone has to govern etc.
    People talking of doing without medication have never really needed it. Try spending an hour trying to get out of bed, then call that discomfort. Try watching a man die of spinal cancer where the nurse had given him the maximum dose and that was not enough.
    Never believe that if you are in the pit you wont need relief
    What I ask is you make your judgements with the thought that one day that might just be you.

  7. #51
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    I do not deny medication in any way. Just like anything else there is a valuable space for it in our lives. However bulk of hospital visits and pills intake can be or could be prevented and not through some eastern chanting but through choices that are good for us and freeing ourselves from excuses. Of courses someone has to govern, but it is a choice to do so with ease or not. As you you think, so shall you be. Elevated blood pressure due to perceived state of stress in conjunction with other things is the biggest cause of cardiovascular disease and premature death.

    We do not understand completely how we function. So why don't we work on it, so we understand ourselves a bit better. I believe in evolution, and the next step in it is to realize that we are no longer animals, we are indeed higher beings. We got to stop pretending that we have no control of our bodies, we can rid ourselves of emotional and substance addictions that cause us so much grief. In the meanwhile, in many cases, medications are the only way. However, if we want to be in a different place in regards to our health in the future, we need to make different decisions today.

    Alex

  8. #52
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    Just an aside, placebo effects are not always positive.

    In some studies the placebo takers have reported negative effects.
    Cheers, Ern

  9. #53
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    completely agree. As well as so many medicines that produce negative effects for various reasons. At least with placebo we are not putting a metaphorical cane toad into our body. Placebo isn't the magic bullet, it is though a very simple indication of power of mind and that is the area we must improve in. Doesn't mean we must get rid of drugs overnight. I think it's a good direction to pick though.

    Alex

  10. #54
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    Antibiotics and vaccines are the big success stories among medicines.

    But antibiotics haven't been used all that wisely and we've bred resistant bacteria. Those will become a big health threat; it's said that more Australians die of MRSA now than from road accidents.
    Cheers, Ern

  11. #55
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    Alex, rrobor and Ian

    You are all making very valid points and in doing so emphasis the complexity of healing. Then we throw in the secret agendas of the pecuniary multi nationals and we have a very confused situation.

    Perhaps the partial effect of the placebo points to us, in some instances convincing ourselves in our minds that we are sick when in reality it is only a perception. Consequently the placebo works very well as it had nothing to fix in the first place. To some extent probably everyone of us is gulity of this. our head cold may seem to be worse than it really is etc.etc.

    There comes a point, however when the illness or injury is no longer a mental ailment but a reality. Clearly a broken bone is a reality and can be seen. Illnesses are less well defined and are consequently open to conjecture.

    An example is back pain. It is the easiest of discomforts to fake and the hardest to prove.

    Cancers and other insidious diseases go to an even harder and less tangible dimension. Some are are miraculously cured and other die within a few weeks of diagnosis.

    All very, very difficult: No easy solution; A situation not made any easier by the stance of pharmaceutical companies.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  12. #56
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    Default A case history

    About 10 years ago I bought the woodworking machines from an old joinery. Jeff, the owner had shut the shop one day and just left it sitting there for many years.

    In the interim he was diagnosed with cancer (prostate). They said there was nothing to be done. He saw a chinese doctor, who suggested that he try barley grass as he agreed there was not much else to be done.

    He tried it and his blood count returned to normal and the cancer receeded or disappeared. He got complacent and stopped taking the barley grass and the blood count returned to danger levels.

    So he started the barley grass regime and once again the blood count returned to normal. Actually it was better than the average person on the street.

    Read what you want into this. Jeff was in his early 70s when I first met him about 10 years ago.

    Doesn't mean it will work for everyone, but some things are definitely worth trying.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  13. #57
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    I once read a biography of a Canadian who was diagnosed with cancer and told to get his affairs in order. The Monty Python crew must have read the same book because the guy said “Beggar this, I wanted to be a lumberjack”. After 3 years of being one, he returned and doctors found no cancer.
    Who knows what this shows. When you look at a living thing, you are looking at a colony of life. There is a special little bug that lives on your eyelashes, your hair grows mushrooms and your mouth has more wildlife in it than you could calculate.
    Is your immune system part of you, or are you its host?
    We all try to find reason, but life has no reason. Life is just life, a pattern that happened, and now it fights to survive and replicate in whatever form it happens to be in.
    We can point the bone or stick pins in dolls and achieve all sorts of results. Self hypnosis can also work. But the why and how, we don’t know. What we do know is that to prove something worthwhile you have to replicate it many times. That is the tough part.
    Snake oil works on the fact that 10% or more it will help and the odd miracle cure will camouflage the bulk that failed.

  14. #58
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    Well! There is three sides of the argument
    1 Those young people that take any drugs as part of their recreation to get high. (Once I got addicted to diazepam for over two years)

    2 Older people that end up in hospital doctors pump drugs till they blow up. (I was attorney for a friend that passed away with lung fibrosis and heart failure) .

    3 Very sick people given drugs indiscriminately to palliate pain and suffering.(My own wife 4 times cancer survivor started with ovarian cancer stage III (dying) skin and breast cancer, agnocarcinoma 2008 and pelvic cancer 2009 (scheduled to die nov 2009)


    Off course like in any profession there is a lot of misdiagnosis in hospitals and clinics and it takes more than two to tango. Honeslty if it was not for my intervention with hospital staff and seeking specialist surgeons she in all probabilty would have died in 1991 when she was discharged from emergency at The Alfred Hospital with the wrong diagnosis of food poisoning when in fact that night she was diagnosed with a severe attack of menieres disease (vomiting continuosly and severe loss of fluid brings about dehydration followed by cardiac arrest or heart failure) The lucky starts took me to The Eye and Ear Hosptal where she was rushed to the wards and attended there however she did have a cardiac arrest that night.

    I have been there with my wife and we had gone through all these procedures.
    At the end of the day what is worth is to be alive with quality of life. She has given up drugs cold turkey (doctors to this day cannot believe how she manages without all these hard drugs anymore she used to take 7 oxycodone 10mg, 2 oxycontin 20mg and wearing patches 50 mili micrograms just to palliate the bone pain Surely these are highly addictive however she kicked the habit right on the butt. I still do not know how she did it but feels liek her body has a natural rejection for foreign substances so the anesthetist told she even was trying to wake up nearing the end of a very delicate operation and him and the surgeon were startled and perplexed how she was waling up so soon

    It all comes down to individual needs and reaction and how well the patient manages changes in his/her body.

    Overall it is documented that the mind plays a very important role in self healing and projecting attitude, however this is individual thing and I wish my wife could tell me how she fought her battles with cancer but she could not she only prayed and prayed roughly one hour daily until she fell asleep then wake up and pray some more .

    The featured report has its origins in the US and does not accurately reflect Australian drugs standards, usage, tests, trails and administration even when large drug.companies are US based research, development trails and administration is not by itself the end of the story. I have friends working in research and development of drugs and marketing specialist working for for such companies flying to the US three times a year surely they have something to say when they get there medicine and drug development is a two way business

    I hope this is been of some information to you

  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrobor View Post

    We all try to find reason, but life has no reason. Life is just life, a pattern that happened, and now it fights to survive and replicate in whatever form it happens to be in.

    I think this is the best we came up so far here. We are bred to believe that our life is for some reason more precious than one of other living things. Fear of death sells not just medications but also insurances, locks on our doors, 6 air bags and well pretty much everything else. Not to sound too bitter, we are going to die one way or another. So just like the butterfly that lives for a day, the least we can do is to enjoy and get the most out of this glorious moments.

    When my wife's third pregnancy was terminated by miscarriage I realized that life is just life. It's impartial and absolutely perfect.

    Alex

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by yashinskiy View Post
    I think this is the best we came up so far here. We are bred to believe that our life is for some reason more precious than one of other living things. Fear of death sells not just medications but also insurances, locks on our doors, 6 air bags and well pretty much everything else. Not to sound too bitter, we are going to die one way or another. So just like the butterfly that lives for a day, the least we can do is to enjoy and get the most out of this glorious moments.

    When my wife's third pregnancy was terminated by miscarriage I realized that life is just life. It's impartial and absolutely perfect.

    Alex
    I see perhaps this is why doctors insist on giving the patient antidepressants just because they do not learn to accept reality.
    Then again doctors are not in the patient's shoes and they don't have time to be philosophical.

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