Thread: Why you should be wary about medications

AFAIK there's evidence that meds can help with depression, as a short-term measure. Compared with other remedies such as NLP, vigorous exercise (yes, believe it or not), counselling or psychotherapy, I'm sure the research has something to say.

Long-term use of depression meds can be very trying to wean off.

But the whole framing can be challenged.

For one person the feeling is labelled as depression; for another, just 'down in the dumps'.

Do we really need to 'medicalise' feeling low, or down or lacking energy and interest?

One of the big drivers to do so is big pharma, so they can sell anti-depressants (Google on their efforts in Japan, to export a Western 'illness' as a 'cold in the soul'.)

When kids don't suit our schooling regime, it's been medicalised as ADHD, requiring drugs.

When kids are shy, same deal.

Again this is a far too simplistic view on reality. For example kids in Japan go to school then go to ‘after school’ and they have to succeed.
From this stress there will be wreckage. Japan also had manufacturers caring for employees, now it’s all offshore and there is more wreckage.
To lay blame on poor mental health in Japan at any one door denies the breadth of human issues and the changes in society.
If we all were clones then we might just be able to understand each others issues. As we are not, there is no simple definitive answer or truth; it is for each, to find his own.
Diet for example is a major factor in school problems.
In UK a study was done and it found that improving diet improved results. Feeding kids a breakfast fixed many issues.
But again that’s too simplistic. Many homes have both parents at work as a necessity.
I have been depressed, couldn’t sleep. Couldn’t trot down the road either.
Took me half an hour to turn over in bed.
I took anti depressants, shocking things, but I got some sleep and weaned off from the bland pills.
We are chemistry sets and depression can be some imbalance. My son as an infant had an op. In the hospital nursery there was a lovely newborn Chinese girl. Her mother rejected her and had for about 2 weeks due to post natal depression. Then one day it was over and happy mother took her child home.

one of the famous psychologists, cannot recall his name now, wrote of an incident, which goes as follows:

He received a phone call from a guy who was on a brink of killing himself. He was essentially looking for something to grab on to as a last resort. After a short conversation the doctor proposed that he needs to do something for someone, even the most trivial thing. The doctor asked if there is anything the gentlemen can think off. The guy said that there is an old lady that lives downstairs and in front of her door is a big mess of old newspapers, leaves and so on. The psychologist urged him to grab a broom and go tidy it up without telling her or anyone else. The man was back in 10 minutes and just by the sound of his voice the doctor new it was a reformed man on the other side of the line.

Doing something for someone for no reward and no recognition takes the accent of our ego and puts towards the greater good. That's when things change.

"We are here to serve others only"
- Einstein

thanks.

Alex

I think this could be an area where the pharaceutical companies are most irresponsible and disreputable. There is no disputing that depression is real, but it is largely fabricated in the mind.

I don't pretend to know how you escape from it. All I can say is that we all have suffered from it at some time, albeit in it's most mild form. I think we call it saddness. From there it progresses to despair and I suppose the final development is depression.

I don't know if any of you have seen the statistics relating to depression in Bangladesh. Probably not. I doubt there are any. They are too busy trying to stay alive to be depressed.

To some extent I feel that depression is a disease of the afluent western world. In fact you have to have a high point to be able to come to the lows.

As such it is brewed in the mind and drugs are unlikely to be the answer. This is not the attitude of the drug companies.

Having said all that I am aware that there is evidence to show that a chemical imbalance also results in depression.

I must apologise to any of you have suffered with depression as I know it to be a debilitating disease that has all the potential to wreck family life as well as your own. It is not my intention to belittle any symptoms. I make a comment on possible causes and the attitude towards treatment.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

I think this could be an area where the pharaceutical companies are most irresponsible and disreputable. There is no disputing that depression is real, but it is largely fabricated in the mind.

I don't pretend to know how you escape from it. All I can say is that we all have suffered from it at some time, albeit in it's most mild form. I think we call it saddness. From there it progresses to despair and I suppose the final development is depression.

I don't know if any of you have seen the statistics relating to depression in Bangladesh. Probably not. I doubt there are any. They are too busy trying to stay alive to be depressed.

To some extent I feel that depression is a disease of the afluent western world. In fact you have to have a high point to be able to come to the lows.

As such it is brewed in the mind and drugs are unlikely to be the answer. This is not the attitude of the drug companies.

Having said all that I am aware that there is evidence to show that a chemical imbalance also results in depression.

I must apologise to any of you have suffered with depression as I know it to be a debilitating disease that has all the potential to wreck family life as well as your own. It is not my intention to belittle any symptoms. I make a comment on possible causes and the attitude towards treatment.

Regards
Paul

There is a high prevalence of mental illness and depression in Bangladesh (rural areas at least). It is not a disease of affluence. It is a disease of the mind. It took 15 seconds to find scholarly articles relating to this fact using google.

Cheers
Michael

Originally Posted by mic-d

There is a high prevalence of mental illness and depression in Bangladesh (rural areas at least). It is not a disease of affluence. It is a disease of the mind. It took 15 seconds to find scholarly articles relating to this fact using google.

Cheers
Michael

Excellent. I am glad people are thinking this through. I actually did no research (no seconds). I could have chosen almost any community outside the western world. My point is that it is in the mind. You appear to agree with that, although I would suggest that the incidence in the western world is indeed higher. No doubt some research would verify that.


Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Excellent. I am glad people are thinking this through. I actually did no research (no seconds). I could have chosen almost any community outside the western world. My point is that it is in the mind. You appear to agree with that, although I would suggest that the incidence in the western world is indeed higher. No doubt some research would verify that.


Regards
Paul

I should have chosen my words more carefully, it is a disease of the brain and brain chemistry, I did not intend to mean mind in the sense of one's consciousness.

Cheers
Michael

There were some advanced research on raise of depression and suicide rates in third world countries with the advance of western culture or what we used to call it in Russia: the Hollywood culture. Everything is learned in comparison. Monsters of marketing have perfected the ways of stroking our ego the right way and hooking us up on materialism and addictions. Westerners are very much used to it but the eastern folk especially, is like ants to Antrid. Try to explain them that tea ceremony is cooler than Coke

Here's a summary of research on the use of alternative and complementary medicine interventions in the treatment of major depression: click

I'm still digging for a comparison with anti-depressant pharmaceuticals. Must be out there.

Added: this goes some of the way. And this.

And another review found a 1 in 4 success rate of anti-depressant meds controlling for placebo.

Originally Posted by mic-d

I should have chosen my words more carefully, it is a disease of the brain and brain chemistry, I did not intend to mean mind in the sense of one's consciousness.

Cheers
Michael

There is alteration in brain chemistry yes, but does it precede or succeed altered mood and other symptoms? Or coincide with it due to an independent third factor?

It seems that with mild to moderate depression, counselling can be as effective as medicines, so in those cases thoughts and feelings must be changing brain chemistry for the better, and therefore it's reasonable to assume that they can change it for the worse.

This means that for those forms of depression, the causation is psycho-social. The experience is psycho-social, and brain chemistry as measured may be just a sign.

And the emphasis on treating signs and symptoms is one of the major limitations of Western medicine in my book.

Originally Posted by rsser

There is alteration in brain chemistry yes, but does it precede or succeed altered mood and other symptoms? Or coincide with it due to an independent third factor?

It seems that with mild to moderate depression, counselling can be as effective as medicines, so in those cases thoughts and feelings must be changing brain chemistry for the better, and therefore it's reasonable to assume that they can change it for the worse.

This means that for those forms of depression, the causation is psycho-social. The experience is psycho-social, and brain chemistry as measured may be just a sign.

And the emphasis on treating signs and symptoms is one of the major limitations of Western medicine in my book.

quite so.

Cheers
Michael

To me, understanding depression is easy. It is not a disease, purely an imbalance.
We need the highs, love happiness etc. they help us find partners and reproduce.
But we need normality to do the daily chores. That is what our own internal chemistry set produces.
In people with Bipolar disorder their swings are greater than average; their highs are beyond what most of us will ever know. History gives us Boris Yeltsin, Napoleon, Nelson and Alexander the Great suffering this. But their lows drive them to drugs or drink to numb the pain of life.
There is no fix. You can take pills and have a bland flat life, or perhaps accept them as a crutch to relieve a pain that passes. But you have to accept without the lows, there are no highs. The pendulum dictates that.
Accept that you will not fly so high as some. Your bonus is you are unlikely to fall into that depth of depression.

I don't know how this will read when I am finished but at the moment it seems opportune
I have been treated for depression for the last 20 years.and now in the last 18 months they have decided to treat me with Bipolar. I take 2 kinds of antidepressants which leave me feeling flat. I have no incentive to do anything and if I can start something can't wait till its finished. I have had to give up work (7 years now). I am really frustrated because I have the time, a big shed full of tools and machinery, a lot of material and a heap of projects and techniques to develop.......but can't be bothered!!! I am tired all the time.
Luckily we only owe a little bit of money but its still hard to manage on a Disability Pension.
I tried Cognitive Therapy but I found it was too hard to think about every thing you would say or do before you did it.
I find my mind relives things from the past and the old feelings come to the surface. The only time I get out is to do the groceries with the wife(who also has long term depression). I don't like crowds and cringe when I might bump into some one that I know and have to tell them "how I am". DO you lie or tell them the boring truth?
I recently went on to new medication but it proved to make my symptoms worse so had to change back. (That was right at Christmas so it was not good)
The meds are restricting my moods OK. I am nonplussed about about everything and everything seems BLAND
Yes its a bugger

Rod

That all sounds so debilitating. I feel sure that if you have suffered for 20 years, it is a measure of your frustration and despair that you should even talk about it. I hope it helps you.

Not being qualified to discuss such matters in anything other than general terms, I won't, except to say don't give up. It must be hard particularly with your wife suffering in a similar way too.

Have you only been under medical treatment or have you been driven also to "alternative" therapies? I feel bound to ask you this having regard to the original nature of Ern's thread. Don't feel obliged to respond in detail as this is tending towards a personal level. Only what you are comfortable with.

We keep digressing with this thread, but it is a broad concept. However it all comes back to prescription drugs, their consequences and the integrity of the manufacturers.

Regards
Paul