Thread: Chain of custody...who cares?

SWMBO and I were in town yesterday looking for some suitable 2nd hand
furniture to recycle for some much needed storage space. We actually
found what was suitable at the recycling depot at the tip. A win all round.
Not much spent by us, the money goes to charity and no need to use new timber.

However, while doing the rounds we ducked into a one of those shops that sells
Asian made mahogany and teak furniture. When I asked, out of curiosity. about
certification an d chain of custody they had no idea what I was talking about. All
I got in reply was "we import this from Vietnam.""

Nuff said!

Originally Posted by artme

SWMBO and I were in town yesterday looking for some suitable 2nd hand
furniture to recycle for some much needed storage space. We actually
found what was suitable at the recycling depot at the tip. A win all round.
Not much spent by us, the money goes to charity and no need to use new timber.

However, while doing the rounds we ducked into a one of those shops that sells
Asian made mahogany and teak furniture. When I asked, out of curiosity. about
certification an d chain of custody they had no idea what I was talking about. All
I got in reply was "we import this from Vietnam.""

Nuff said!

And here in lies the problem. Chain of Custody starts and stops with the first honest person.
The consumer has no idea what its all about. They would be lucky to know what specie it was, let alone its legal status. Even the retailers of product are unable to substantiate the claims by suppliers as evidence becomes lost in the mist of distance and time. Tonnes of timber are floated down the Mekong daily or, in some cases nightly, much of it legal but a lot of it not. This situation applies to many countries. I have seen company names mentioned on the forum where members are under the impression they do everything by the book. Sorry, that's not the case, be it knowingly or otherwise.
I'm sick and tired of knee-jerk reaction management becoming the standard approach for correcting so called wrongs in this country. Be it gun control, shooting in state forest and national parks or banning logging. Why is it, these things can not be assessed with an open mind in a careful and thoughtful manner?

Originally Posted by artme

SWMBO an I were in town yesterday looking for some suitable 2nd hand
furniture to recycle for some much needed storage space. We actually
found what was suitable at the recycling depot at the tip. A win all round.
Not much spent by us, the money goes to charity and no need to use new timber.

However, while doing the rounds we ducked into a one of those shops that sells
Asian made mahogany and teak furniture. When I asked, out of curiosity. about
certification an d chain of custody they had no idea what I was talking about. All
I got in reply was "we import this from Vietnam.""

Nuff said!

There should be much stricter rules applied to furniture and timber products that are imported into the country,particularly from areas that are known to be suspect ..and consumers need to follow their gut instinct as well...at the end of the day,if don't buy their product,they wont survive in business..the rule of law isn't only for the benefit of a few individuals,but for everyone...it is meant to keep the greedy ones honest,and to protect and preserve us all...

Originally Posted by MAPLEMAN

There should be much stricter rules applied to furniture and timber products that are imported into the country,particularly from areas that are known to be suspect ..and consumers need to follow their gut instinct as well...at the end of the day,if don't buy their product,they wont survive in business..the rule of law isn't only for the benefit of a few individuals,but for everyone...it is meant to keep the greedy ones honest,and to protect and preserve us all...

Do you think its stricter rules we need or would more appropriate rules have a better effect?
There are so many loop holes that allow the imports of these timbers, but , as they were concocted by thems what aint got a clue, the end result has been a blatant disregard and with a little sculduggery, in she comes.
It reminds me of the "Beverly Hill Billies," when they ran their cattle on the tennis court. Cows on one side of the net, bull on the other. Bull goes under the net to join the cows, Jed and Jethro add another panel on top. Bull goes under net again and on goes another panel and so on.

Originally Posted by rustynail

Do you think its stricter rules we need or would more appropriate rules have a better effect?

Well, stricter laws would be appropriate laws,don't you think?

Originally Posted by MAPLEMAN

Well, stricter laws would be appropriate,don't you think?

Or maybe just stricter enforcing of the current laws.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Or maybe just stricter enforcing of the current laws.

Perhaps Brett..might be a good start..wonder if the government really does care about this subject..are they just a toothless tiger?Still think the onus rests on the individual consumer though..it one thinks the product is tainted,then leave it well alone!

Originally Posted by MAPLEMAN

Well, stricter laws would be appropriate laws,don't you think?

Not necessarily, unfortunately, many of the current import regulations, though strict, are not tailored to the particular industry. They are blanket regulations that, in many cases, are almost meaningless when it comes to timber. So it ends up just like Jed and Jethro whacking on another height of fence. Our drug laws have similar issues, to the extent were it has got too hard to police. Next thing you know, they'll legalise it. This is what I meant when I said careful and thoughtful. In many instances much damage has been done over the years as each Government has put in their two bobs worth to deal with an ever escalating problem. Often these decisions had to be watered down to placate the powers that be in the exporting country. Or they were made in the heat of the moment, after a few too many gin and tonics, by someone who was not totally up to speed with the industry in general. What may seem the perfect solution to one vexation may spell doom to someone else.

Originally Posted by rustynail

Not necessarily, unfortunately, many of the current import regulations, though strict, are not tailored to the particular industry. They are blanket regulations that, in many cases, are almost meaningless when it comes to timber. So it ends up just like Jed and Jethro whacking on another height of fence. Our drug laws have similar issues, to the extent were it has got too hard to police. Next thing you know, they'll legalise it. This is what I meant when I said careful and thoughtful. In many instances much damage has been done over the years as each Government has put in their two bobs worth to deal with an ever escalating problem. Often these decisions had to be watered down to placate the powers that be in the exporting country. Or they were made in the heat of the moment, after a few too many gin and tonics, by someone who was not totally up to speed with the industry in general. What may seem the perfect solution to one vexation may spell doom to someone else.

I am certain Rustynail,that if i said it was raining,you would say that is is fine ..'carefull and thoughtfull" eh...whatever you reckon 'ol mate...

[QUOTE=MAPLEMAN;1616441]

Originally Posted by rustynail

I am certain Rustynail,that if i said it was raining,you would say that is is fine ..'carefull and thoughtfull" eh...whatever you reckon 'ol mate...

And if I was to say that and it was raining, then I would be lying.
The fact that I am not in total agreement with your philosophy should not require you to cast aspersions upon my character. You see, there is always more than one side to an argument and there are many other colours on the palette other than black and white. In principal, what you are suggesting is correct and I understand that in that knowledge, you feel perfectly justified in having the views you do... I have no problem with that.
Throughout this discussion, I have tried to explain my reasons for differing but, again, that seems to have fallen on deaf ears or received no acknowledgement . The overriding concern, to you, seems to be the fact that somebody begs to differ, be it only to a small degree. It bothers me somewhat that you fail to see the importance of those two words....careful and thoughtful and, I trust with time you will come to realise, they should not be treated as dismissively as you have now chosen to do.
I am pleased to report it is not raining here.

..do you care about whether or not the timber you purchase has been legally and sustainably harvested?[/QUOTE] This is my question to all forumites,originally posted at the start of this thread...just want to see if the average joe does care..and to gauge how apathetic we may be to this subject..are our concerns(or lack of)generational,are they influenced by the mighty dollar,or is it because of convenience..maybe it's an educational thing also...to address the situation, is surely a complex one,with so many variables to deal with..i don't think it is an easy fix..i plant as many trees as i can to do my bit for the environment,after all,i am a sawmiller..a sawmiller with a passion for timber,and the forests they come from..that's why all the logs we mill are either salvaged,plantation grown..and our customers are well aware of that fact,and supportive..just am asking who out there really do care where there timber comes from?

I do, it's pretty much the first thing I check out. Most vendors volunteer chain of custody where they have it. Have I audited any timber for chain of custody? Nope, nor have I asked for documentation.

I do care about the chain of custody. But how do I, as a private individual, prove a claim or a certificate re the chain of custody to be valid?

I can't! So the whole logic of the process falls down because I can't validate a claim if I wanted too. Most vendors haven't a clue where the raw material came from even if purchasers do care. Next consider the sheer volume of the import / export trade and the manpower and resources to firstly inspect every containers contents then to validate a chain of custody, transport movements, and other documentation. At best Customs, Quarantine etc can’t so they audit and inspect samples or high risk or tip off’s which then leaves room for the unscrupuluous to circumvent and to forge documentation.

Now try and bring in some "unprocessed" timber into Australia as a private individual in hand baggage or as a low volume import, and experience the level of scrutiny you will be subjected to -100% - the risk is there but not to the same level as presented by unscrupuluous importers.

For any of these schemes to work there must be full audit from the source to market. Only organisations like WWF etc can marshall the resources to do that & even they have limited success. Given the very slight marketing gains to be had very few suppliers, importers or retailers see much benefit in promoting the scheme and then educating the buying public about the merits of such a scheme.

Our “Buy Australian” campaign is not as successful as our home grown farmers and manufacturers would like due to the apathy of the buying public, but more so because there is no margain in promoting the scheme by retailers. There is much better margins are to be had in supplying competing products that survive on price alone and do not need promotion.

We do need to promote and enforce such schemes. How to do it efficiently and effectively is the issue. Schemes like Chain of Custody - Fine Timber Tasmania - Legal, Responsible Management of Tasmania's Timber Resources.</ are a great start but how many people know about them?

Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

I do, it's pretty much the first thing I check out. Most vendors volunteer chain of custody where they have it. Have I audited any timber for chain of custody? Nope, nor have I asked for documentation.

So how do you go about checking it out?