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Thread: LVL substitute for KD HW?
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8th May 2022, 10:31 PM #1Novice
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LVL substitute for KD HW?
Hello
My timber supplier cannot get F17 KD HW which I need for some internal structural lintels above some windows in my home.
The home is of both brick veneer (downstairs) and foam (upstairs) construction and is rendered.
The timber supplier suggested using LVL KERTO S-BEAM PLUS E14.5 H2S F17 as a substitute.
Any issues doing this?
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8th May 2022 10:31 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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8th May 2022, 10:44 PM #2
No it will be lighter and you should also be able to get away with a smaller section because it will be structurally stronger than HW
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8th May 2022, 10:49 PM #3Novice
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So is there any reason people still use KD HW instead of LVLs for this type of application?
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8th May 2022, 11:00 PM #4GOLD MEMBER
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I don’t think I’ve put up a hardwood window opening lintel for at least 15 years. All laminated veneer lumber now.
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8th May 2022, 11:02 PM #5
Because they don't know any different and like lifting heavy timber around, best have a chat with a structural engineer to put your mind at rest and he will spec the size you need.
BTW your brick veneer (external leaf of cavity wall) could be made of cheese it is not a structural element of your house, all the load bearing is done from your internal wall, you will need to double up on your timber vertical studwork either side of the opening where you are going to sit your lintel.
Not sure what you mean by form, are you saying concrete formwork? because you would not be using a timber lintel in that type of build.
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8th May 2022, 11:24 PM #6Novice
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Thanks - foam, not form
The house is on a concrete slab.
The house construction is brick veneer downstairs and foam render upstairs. There are steel angles above the windows supporting the brick work. I was referring to the internal lintels in terms of timber
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9th May 2022, 08:11 AM #7
OK Foam as in insulated panels are sitting above your brick veneer, so it is your internal wall that is structural and will be taking the weight of your first floor & roof. LVL's can span a greater distance than the same section HW or a smaller section LVL can replace the requirement for a larger section HW when spanning the same distance. You can also fix 2 LVL's together to get more load bearing, however LVL's will cost more than HW and some HW are naturally termite resistant such as Ironbark.
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9th May 2022, 08:54 AM #8GOLD MEMBER
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LVL is a good replacement for HW. More stable and lighter.
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9th May 2022, 10:12 AM #9Novice
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Thanks all this answers my query
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18th May 2022, 04:21 PM #10Intermediate Member
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I have a couple of quibbles with a couple of the replies above.
The LVL and the KD HW in this instance have the same structural rating (F17), so yes, they are interchangeable but you can't use a smaller section size of the LVL, use the same size you were going to use in KD (or bigger).
More generally F17 is a pretty typical rating for both LVL and KD Vic or Tas Ash. If you had for some reason asked if you could substitute the LVL for KD F27 Bluegum, or any number of more highly rated hardwoods, no, this particular LVL would be structurally inferior. There's certainly not a blanket rule that LVL is structurally stronger than hardwood.
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18th May 2022, 04:52 PM #11
I live in a new subdivision of Canberra.
EVERYTHING is either pre-fab pine trusses, LVL or ply overlay.
LEGO houses
I follow a dutch company and also read an industry magazine called AWISA. LVL and "laminate" construction is huge and getting huge-er.... it makes so much sense.
There are 'Plyscrapers"' put up over the last few years. These all use pre-fab components that are trucked in, unpacked and whacked together as a frame assembly and done in an unseemly pace.
See this! crosslaminatedtimber/
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18th May 2022, 05:36 PM #12
https://www.bigrivergroup.com.au/wp-...-e-beamF17.pdf
When I spoke to a Structural Engineer a few years back he said LVL's are an engineered product thus quality can be maintained unlike hardwood which can solely be graded by visible appearance and is therefore subject to human error.
In the attached leaflet it states e-beam "will meet and/or exceed the F17 KD Hardwood Structural Design Properties" I have also had Structural Engineers specify LVL's at 240mm x 58mm or KDHW 290mm x 45mm for the same opening size , so where a floor zone needs to be taken into account 240mm saves 50mm when compared to 290mm beam.
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18th May 2022, 05:54 PM #13Intermediate Member
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Sure, but I'm not going to take a punt on whether the bit of LVL I'm looking at meets or exceeds what's printed on its face - the building surveyor and/or engineer won't let me in any case. The same "meets or exceeds" applies to visually graded KD anyway, probably more so than LVL given the variability you mentioned.
I have no idea of your particular job but I'd put reasonable money on the smaller size of the LVL being from it being something like F22 and the KD something like F17. Flip it around and the LVL then needs to be bigger than the KD. LVL absolutely comes in better grades than F17, but it's not a rule of thumb you want to go by. No spec I've ever seen from an engineer gives just a timber type, it's going to have a rating as well. If it doesn't get a new engineer.
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19th May 2022, 12:53 PM #14
I have also been following CrossLaminated Timber (CLT or "jumbo plywood") construction for several years. It is really big, even more so in Finland than Holland. It is flatpacks on a gigantic scale. Sections made in a factory and up to 15m x 3.6m and up to 400mm thick (Dimensions are the largest that can be carried on a truck in EU) but larger sections can be made for carriage by ship or barge.
This is a different product from laminated veneer lumber:
- LVL is thin laminates all running in the same direction - I first met it in the States in 1980 where it was sold as microlam,
- CLT uses much thicker laminates (25mm?) at 90 degrees to eachother - hence jumbo plywood.
There are a few examples of CLT construction in Australia:
Crosslamtimber Building Systems AUSTRALIAN CLT BUILDINGS
Australia’s first cross laminated timber (CLT) public building opens: Library at The Dock | Architecture & Design
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20th May 2022, 03:00 PM #15
These buildings are technological marvels.
It baffles me why they build only one.
The factories can make one, then they could do 10 or 100.
Given the housing crises, this seems like the perfect solution for quick (temporary?1) housing. Dormitory-style.
The Canberra Uni did exactly this. They used a grant (what a scam THAT was) to build more temporary housing for students. A wonderful building that seemed to go up in a fortnight.... THEN leased those new bedsits to INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS at extortionate rates!!!!
1 there is nothing more permanent than a temporary solution....
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