Thread: Is timber a viable option for the woodworking hobbyist?

Originally Posted by Harry72

Sorry Gary I forgot to say... probably 3 full sized tv cabinets with some spare from a 290/19x3m 50pc pack, cabs this sized made here in australia would be between $1500~2000 retail.
Its 4 or so years ago now so prices would have gone up, the merchant grade is whats left after good stuff is taken out, but remember they look for clear long lenghts so the stuff left over has a lot of knots and end splits.
Being a crafty hobby we work around this problem, 1 plank may end up as 3 or 4 bits say 1200/90mm of clear wood(good for stiles and rails or frame work)and some short wider pieces that can be used for panel work... after all its pine it will have knots in it everyone knows that!

Thanks Harry, that's very helpful. I don't need perfection at all, I have a lot of furniture to make, but it just needs to be rustic or shabby chic. The people who were here before me had a knack for making things look French provincial with just some tricks and an antique paint method. They, of course took all their furniture with them but the kitchen and bathroom cabinets etc. are all done that way and I would like my furniture to fit in with that theme. On top of that I want to make some outdoor furniture and 2 or three church pews.

I saw a mountain of wood today. Literally a mountain of wood. All of it from pallets, packing crates etc. just being turned into mulch - there was a mountain of mulch there too. Seemed a shame somehow.

Originally Posted by Harry72

The great birch ply debate, the answer is simple the high quality ply you see in that magazine is mega expensive so its little used here.
There are quality plys about but they are mainly made for the architectural industry, most of us use common grades like BC still does the job just dont look as pretty.
And yes most here on this forum dont use ply for furniture.

Yeah, pretty much knew that, but that wasn't going to stop me complaining about it. ;-)

Originally Posted by scottbr

I just skimmed this thread, Gary.

I appreciate your dilemma.

I'm lucky because I live in Marrickville - same street as Annagate, just to rub it in.

I get most timber from Danias, but for a hobbyist, the guys at Rallis have more time to chat.

None of that helps you given where you live.

Not now anyway - it was only a few weeks ago that I was just up the road from you, but then I had a minuscule workshop and so they were of only limited use to me. Now I have a 7 x 8.5 metre workshop - and no wood! (well some but not enough).

Now I look back I don't recall ever going to Rallis and I have absolutely no idea why.

Originally Posted by scottbr

I spend way too much time on eBay - it's a great distraction when I'm at work.

I can relate to that! ;-)

Originally Posted by scottbr

Often I think, gee the timber in that is great. The Mossvale/Bowral/Mittagong area is pretty big. There must be people down there flogging things on eBay for hardly anything that are made of great timber?

My big problem is transport. I have a Honda Civic VTi - a nice enough car for what it is, but totally impractical for 90% of my present requirements. It is hopeless trying to transport anything of bulk - long narrow pieces are not too bad though.

Originally Posted by scottbr

I would start building up stock of nice stuff rather than trying to get it to order.

Well as an ongoing hobby that's exactly what I have been doing and will continue to do, but it doesn't really help when I need to build quite a bit of furniture:

entertainment unit, book cases, display cases, coffee table, side tables, dining room table, chairs/bench, TV stand, tallboy, bedside tables, kitchen Island, blanket box, headboard, picture frames, pews, outdoor setting

...and I have to get it all done by Christmas! (just kidding about the last bit).

Gosh - I have never set it all down in writing before - I'm going to be a busy boy aren't I?

Glad I've got my Kreg pocket jig set...

...and I thought the cost of the wood was my main problem...

Originally Posted by garym

@timber cost

Thanks Greg, but that tells me why it's n dollars / unit NOT why it's n * x dollars / unit where x can be anything from 5 to 10 or more compared to what people are paying elsewhere. Those costs are applicable *anywhere* in the world in some form or another.

I don't want to pay *nothing* I want to pay a price that is similar to what people in the US are paying - or even TWICE as much! - or a price whereby I can contribute all of the labour and other costs in producing a piece of furniture and that price be less than I can buy the same imported piece up at the local furniture shop - I don't care how low the wages are in Indonesia or wherever if I do all the post timber production work there should be a substantial saving - I am not finding that at all. But 5 times and 10 times the price can't be justified in my opinion.

Let's look at your $1500/m3 estimate for "cheap logs" by the conversion by this method https://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...calculator.xls

the 2 x 4 x 8 Premium Kiln Dried Whitewood Stud would cost $18! (their price $2.48)

(I have converted that to 50 x 100 x 2400)

come on some thing's wrong somewhere (ok maybe my calculations - check me).

7 times the price? why?????

The worst part is that according to many US woodworking forums HD is EXPENSIVE - good lord!

God save me: $18 /2.4 = $7.50/m for a lousy bit of wood? what's it made of GOLD???

Somebody tell me my calcs are wrong because I can't believe it myself at this stage.

BTW I have always had the theory that %10 profit margin is the ideal - but my accountant insists that 30% is what the recommend - wish I could get that on my investments...

Garym,
Your maths is correct but this is a bit of a HP swindle. If you follow your link re the 2*4*8 and look under the specifications tab you will note "actual dimensions 3.5 by 1.5". The same stick at $1500m^3 comes out at $12.40 and you will note "store exclusive" - code for screw the supplier who is trying to become a regular supplier. What it really highlights is the underpricing of American timber and American consumerism.

don't forget about sand paper,glue,oils,varnishes,nails,screws,cleaners,paints,dowels or anything else that goes with woodworking

Originally Posted by timboz

Garym,
Your maths is correct but this is a bit of a HP swindle. If you follow your link re the 2*4*8 and look under the specifications tab you will note "actual dimensions 3.5 by 1.5". The same stick at $1500m^3 comes out at $12.40 and you will note "store exclusive" - code for screw the supplier who is trying to become a regular supplier. What it really highlights is the underpricing of American timber and American consumerism.

Yes, but it is normal (infuriatingly) that the stated size is for the undressed state, I thought you meant that was the final dressed price/m^3. But even so the difference in price is 5 times the price. I don't think "store exclusive" can account for that amount of difference. In addition I can cite several sources that complain HD is expensive - in the same sense I complain about Bunnings being expensive. I can also cite several sites that claim prices I can only dream of for their woodwork projects.

"underpricing of American timber and American consumerism" well, I guess that depends very much on which side of the fence you sit on.

I had a longish chat with a chap in one of the hardware shops I frequent today. He used to work for his father who owned one of the 2 timber mills in the region. According to him the mill sourced local timber from no more than 3 hours distance. According to him all source was "sustainable" as to do otherwise was economic suicide. The government shut both mills down (by not re-issuing licenses) in the 90s citing "environmental" reasons. I can't help but believe that this is at least one of the major underlying factors for the high prices.

Originally Posted by charlsie

don't forget about sand paper,glue,oils,varnishes,nails,screws,cleaners,paints,dowels or anything else that goes with woodworking

PLEASE do not start me on the price of finishes (paint, oils, varnishes, etc) they make the price of wood seem good!

Originally Posted by garym

Yes, but it is normal (infuriatingly) that the stated size is for the undressed state, I thought you meant that was the final dressed price/m^3. But even so the difference in price is 5 times the price. I don't think "store exclusive" can account for that amount of difference. In addition I can cite several sources that complain HD is expensive - in the same sense I complain about Bunnings being expensive. I can also cite several sites that claim prices I can only dream of for their woodwork projects.

"underpricing of American timber and American consumerism" well, I guess that depends very much on which side of the fence you sit on.

I had a longish chat with a chap in one of the hardware shops I frequent today. He used to work for his father who owned one of the 2 timber mills in the region. According to him the mill sourced local timber from no more than 3 hours distance. According to him all source was "sustainable" as to do otherwise was economic suicide. The government shut both mills down (by not re-issuing licenses) in the 90s citing "environmental" reasons. I can't help but believe that this is at least one of the major underlying factors for the high prices.

Garym,
The stick shown in the link is rough sawn (look closely) and Australian (at least Qld) regs allow only +/- 3mm varience in nominal to actual dimensions of rough sawn timber (though I often see 140mm green sawn passed off as 150mm). Also, 70*35 KD pine studding (true size) of equivalent quality vs there 87*38 can be had in bulk for around $3.50 a stick in Oz. As for mill quotas and sawmill closures I agree that latterly responsible millers did operate sustainably but we are transitioning to a plantation supplied resource by 2020 (at least in Qld).

There are a number of suppliers of the plywood that is often seen in the US (and frequent US atricle reprints in a certain Australian publication).

This type of ply is often refererred to as Baltic Birch ply. Some comes from Finland & much comes from Russia - both use birch; and the Australian equivalent is made from hoop pine. Similar plywoods can be obtained in other species.

The things that diferentiate these from our "regular" ply is the fact that there are more layers for a given thickness, defects are uncommon, and voids are filled very neatly. Plys are typically between 1mm & 1.4mm - for example an 18mm sheet will have 13 plys.

These factors combine to present edges beautifully. Some can be obtained with white or black glues, giving different edge appearance.

See these local suppliers:

http://www.dmkforestproducts.com.au/birch.html
Welcome to Marine Timbers
Austral Plywoods - Products - Multiply

I do agree that what should be common timber has become a very expensive item, with prices escallating & quality decreasing. When comparing us to the USA, you need to bear in mind that the US is largely a wet, temerate environment, and still has enormous forrest resources. We in Australia live in a vast desert with minimal forest resources, many of which have been locked up in various ways. We also have large distances to transport the raw and finished goods compared to many US locations, and we have a rapidly declining pool of forest product processing plants, so those that are left can start to cdictate prices. Economies of scale in both supply and demand certainly play a major part in the price differential.

It is certainly possible to import timber relatively cheaply. I am i the midst of a substantial entertainment unit project and suggeted the client use purpleheart (fortunately fitted the room decor) as I could get nominal 150 x 30 boards at about $8/metre from an importer - about half the price of construction grade ozzy hardwood!!

I only use those pine/spruce 2x4's for framing or rough/quick construction... I use something quite a bit better for actual woodworking use.... For example - I made up a shelf for the kitchen - 6" deep x 2' long... the 4' long Oak board cost me $20.00 US... Another shelf for the VCR was made of pine... but a very good grade - no knots or defects... That board cost me $12.00 US

Now... Very high quality Spruce that is used in Airplanes and Guitars runs quite a bit more - $50-100/bd-ft.... That stuff has to be cut just so and can't have any defects in it....

Don't forget that much of our timber is coming off of "Public" land - so it's coming at an artificially low price vs if it was raised on commercial timber farming operations.... It's the old "Plight of the Commons" at it again....

Unfortunately, I do understand that part of the conversation is just blowing off some steam.... I suppose it really doesn't matter what timber costs here - as you don't have much choice but to pay what it costs there..... No doubt in your situation - the freight costs more than the lumber itself does.....

I think your best bet might be to ferret out some alternate sources... There are always plenty of yard and street trees coming down in most towns... Most tree services will either give them away free - or sell them really cheap to make them go away.... Make friends with the tree service fellow and you will find yourself in a lifetime supply of logs.... Hire a miller to mill them for you.... Then - you will have a steady supply of wood.... Sure - milling yard trees might be a bit more expensive than forest trees - but it's still pennies compared to retail prices.....

Another idea is to find local sawyers and buy wood from them... Most hobby sawyers will sell a little on the side to pay for gas, beer, and whatnot.... Most of those guys like sawing wood a whole lot... but most don't use nearly as much as they saw (Many don't really build anything.. They just like to cut wood..).... It's usually not too hard to pry a couple boards out of their hands....

Another resource is local construction companies and builders... Those guys buy in bulk at discount prices - and they likely would sell you a few boards out of their pile if you ask nice....

Thanks

Originally Posted by timboz

Garym,
The stick shown in the link is rough sawn (look closely) and Australian (at least Qld) regs allow only +/- 3mm varience in nominal to actual dimensions of rough sawn timber (though I often see 140mm green sawn passed off as 150mm). Also, 70*35 KD pine studding (true size) of equivalent quality vs there 87*38 can be had in bulk for around $3.50 a stick in Oz. As for mill quotas and sawmill closures I agree that latterly responsible millers did operate sustainably but we are transitioning to a plantation supplied resource by 2020 (at least in Qld).

Hmmm, I am not sure that any conclusion can be drawn from the picture - I thought it looked pretty good, prob better than it really is. I was going off the fact that it's nominal and actual size are those specifically list in the "North American softwood dimensional lumber sizes", that is the actual size is after the timber is "finished/planed and cut to standardized width and depth".

My original comparison was between (US)2x4 and (Aus)45x90 - if you do the sums I think you'll find that's the best comparison that can be made, in fact the Australian size may be a little smaller if anything. If I plug those into the aforementioned calculator I get about $14.60 a stick.

The best price for a 70*35 stud I can find is $2.15 plm, albeit not in quantity.

Originally Posted by truckjohn

I only use those pine/spruce 2x4's for framing or rough/quick construction... I use something quite a bit better for actual woodworking use.... For example - I made up a shelf for the kitchen - 6" deep x 2' long... the 4' long Oak board cost me $20.00 US... Another shelf for the VCR was made of pine... but a very good grade - no knots or defects... That board cost me $12.00 US

Now... Very high quality Spruce that is used in Airplanes and Guitars runs quite a bit more - $50-100/bd-ft.... That stuff has to be cut just so and can't have any defects in it....

Don't forget that much of our timber is coming off of "Public" land - so it's coming at an artificially low price vs if it was raised on commercial timber farming operations.... It's the old "Plight of the Commons" at it again....

Unfortunately, I do understand that part of the conversation is just blowing off some steam.... I suppose it really doesn't matter what timber costs here - as you don't have much choice but to pay what it costs there..... No doubt in your situation - the freight costs more than the lumber itself does.....

I think your best bet might be to ferret out some alternate sources... There are always plenty of yard and street trees coming down in most towns... Most tree services will either give them away free - or sell them really cheap to make them go away.... Make friends with the tree service fellow and you will find yourself in a lifetime supply of logs.... Hire a miller to mill them for you.... Then - you will have a steady supply of wood.... Sure - milling yard trees might be a bit more expensive than forest trees - but it's still pennies compared to retail prices.....

Another idea is to find local sawyers and buy wood from them... Most hobby sawyers will sell a little on the side to pay for gas, beer, and whatnot.... Most of those guys like sawing wood a whole lot... but most don't use nearly as much as they saw (Many don't really build anything.. They just like to cut wood..).... It's usually not too hard to pry a couple boards out of their hands....

Another resource is local construction companies and builders... Those guys buy in bulk at discount prices - and they likely would sell you a few boards out of their pile if you ask nice....

Thanks

Thanks for that, very enlightening, I guess it proves that where ever you are you can pay pretty much anything you like for anything, we just seem to be constrained in the lower sector, no such problems in the higher. ;-)

I was going to comment about "local sawyers" that there are no longer any such thing in my area, but I am now not sure exactly what you mean by that term. Technically when I go out to the shed and saw a bit of wood I am a sawyer...

Thanks for the tips. In fact I do many of these things but in this case, as I have mentioned in previous posts, I am after a considerable amount of lumber in as sort a space of time as possible.

Look, I am sure this is all getting a bit boring for you and I will not be dismayed if you ignore this part as time is money in so many ways, but if you *did* have time I wonder if you could have a quick look at this site (as I had in my initial post)

Ana White | Build a Farmhouse Bench | Free and Easy DIY Project and Furniture Plans

and comment on the fact that some builders of this item were doing it at a cost of $15 (yeah right!) and, if you could, give me an idea of what you think it would cost you to make there?

Thanks again your input is very much appreciated.

Well Gary, for a person who joined in 2007 and has made a total of 83 posts to date (Dec 2 @ 23:25) you've certainly got the ball rolling with this one

there's a myraid of reasons why we pay more for stuff than in the US
1) Australian retail wages are around 2-3 times those in the US
2) Australia has a comprehensive health care system
3) property prices (expressed as $/square metre) are way higher than in the US -- translates into higher rents
4) The Australian retail model is based on turn-over rents
5) Most Australians live in the south-east, a location I semi-jokingly describe as the "far end of the world" when it comes to transport
6) there's too few of us and we live a long way apart
7) the climate where most of us live is not conducive to fast growing quality timbers

there's many more, but that will give you a flavour

Then I'll give you three basic options of how to spend your retail dollars
1) you can pay as little as possible by buying stuff made in China -- either here of via the internet
2) you can buy stuff made in Australia by workers paid Chinese equivalent wages -- around $100 per month
3) you can buy stuff made in Australia by workers paid Australian "standard" wages and working to Australian "standard" conditions

Now remembering that most Australians work in service industries (and retail is a service industry) which option is "best" for you and your neighbours?

Gary,

There's no way I could build that bench for $15.00... especially if I wanted it to come out anything like the ones pictured there..... Likely I would have more than $15.00 in the finish alone.....

Likely the fellow who is talking $15.00 already has most of the supplies in his garage... and only has to go out and buy a couple 1x's for the top or something..... and isn't planning on building something "Indoor quality"....

Just the prices around here - I would probably have at least $40.00 into the wood to come up with something I would consider "Indoors" quality... Probably another $30 into the finish (Stain and varnish), screws, hardware, glue, bits and pieces..... If I used an AA face Cabinet maker's plywood for the top instead of the 1x's - it would probably be closer to $60 in wood....

The quality of joinery and finish that they are showing there in the pix - it's not a quick weekend project either... You gotta joint up all the pieces for the bench top and then glue them all together... Then run it all through a planer or drum sander before connecting it to the base.... If you just wanted to nail up some boards, you would have to leave 3mm gaps between the boards to take up for bow and seasonal movement.... You gotta level the whole bench frame properly so the seat part doesn't crack across high spots... Etc... Then spend another 40-50 hours getting that finish on just right....

I don't even think I could knock it up for $15.00 in wood alone - even if I went cheap... 4 of the cheapest horrible grade 2x4's are $13.00 of that $15.00 ... I would have to go Curb Collecting to come in under $15.00.....

When I looked closely at the pictures - it appears that those benches in the pic were actually made out with tops that were either 1-piece slabs, or very carefully jointed... That raises the price even more....

Thanks