Thread: Is timber a viable option for the woodworking hobbyist?

I work for a timber supplier to the majority of retail & trade groups across Australia and they all screw suppliers and now even more due to Masters opening up. The quality of timber in this country compared to the US is second to none. Go to Masters and look at the Red Oak or Poplar. It is absolute crap. Suppliers in this country bust their guts to bring products into these stores yet the likes of Bunnings just screw them over.
He is an example. A piece of 42 x 19mm knotty pine in Bunning sells for $1.08 per metre, yet they have screwed the supplier down to below 50c per meter. How can suppliers survive. Not happy with that Bunnings are now are going to direct import this product from NZ and bypass the Australian supplier altogether. There goes more jobs. I can go on for hours. In short 95% of timber sold in Australia is imported so don't bag Australian suppliers for retailers greed.

Originally Posted by Torinco

In short 95% of timber sold in Australia is imported so don't bag Australian suppliers for retailers greed.

Not I - I am absolutely SURE it is retailers greed. There are many other examples besides the timber industry. The question is - WHY are they allowed to get away with it??? - at this point in time the only reason that seems plausible to me is the same reason dogs can lick their b***s...

The *real* problem is, whether it's a home grown product, or an imported product (Why the high price tag?)
retailers will ALWAYS attempt to maximise their profit - nothing wrong with that BUT the prices we are paying are totally out of proportion with that concept - at this point it time I believe it's due to 2 things:

deregulation and the good old Australian "apathy".

In relation to timber, in particular, I think there is a very significant third reason, the rise of communis environmentalism.

Originally Posted by garym

Not I - I am absolutely SURE it is retailers greed. There are many other examples besides the timber industry. The question is - WHY are they allowed to get away with it??? - at this point in time the only reason that seems plausible to me is the same reason dogs can lick their b***s...

The *real* problem is, whether it's a home grown product, or an imported product (Why the high price tag?)
retailers will ALWAYS attempt to maximise their profit - nothing wrong with that BUT the prices we are paying are totally out of proportion with that concept - at this point it time I believe it's due to 2 things:

deregulation and the good old Australian "apathy".

more likely it's due to the small size and dispersed nature of the Australian market, combined with weak competition law and the subsequent rise of duopoly service providers. (four in the case of banking)
These service providers can then exercise very significant market power.

Breaking up the service duopolies would most likely transfer the market power to the few manufactures left in Australia -- with the result that consumers will continue to pay "too much"

I note that deregulation of the banking market in the mid 1980s hasn't resulted in any real competition for Australia's Big 4

The reasons prices in Australian hardware stores are higher than those in US "big box" stores has been well documented. Several members have gone out of their way to explain why it is the case.

An assertion that "communists" (!!!) are a cause of higher timber prices in theses stores is ridiculous. These prices are set through market forces by commercial enterprises with parent companies listed on the ASX.

In my view this thread has marked a new low point in forum debate. Continuing to reject logic and reasoning in favor of conspiracy theories and diatribe has never been a characteristic of discussions here.

If "environmentalists" play any part in timber prices then it's a bare minimum of impact through a set of policies designed to place our timber industry on a sustainable footing. I consider myself an "environmentalist" I want there to be forests and timber for future generations to use and enjoy.

I'm a fifth generation australian woodworker, my grandfather, great-grandfather and great-great grandfather owned and operated sawmills. I grew up knowing about balance. The clear-felling practices that the big commercial loggers employed on forests previously maintained by my forebears dismayed my family. The fact that 99% of that clear-felled timber was exported as woodchips when, if it had been carefully milled, the great majority would have been salvageable, shows what wanton vandalism was and in some cases still is permitted.

Perhaps, if we get our act together, most of those species of animals and plants I saw as a child will still be there for my grandchildren and their grandchildren to enjoy.

In the mean time we can thank the indiscriminate practices of woodchip operators and the short-sighted actions of a single generation for having exported more craft timber as woodchips in 20 years that all Australian furniture-makers would use in 200.

Originally Posted by Horaldic

The reasons prices in Australian hardware stores are higher than those in US "big box" stores has been well documented. Several members have gone out of their way to explain why it is the case.

An assertion that "communists" (!!!) are a cause of higher timber prices in theses stores is ridiculous. These prices are set through market forces by commercial enterprises with parent companies listed on the ASX.

In my view this thread has marked a new low point in forum debate. Continuing to reject logic and reasoning in favor of conspiracy theories and diatribe has never been a characteristic of discussions here.

If "environmentalists" play any part in timber prices then it's a bare minimum of impact through a set of policies designed to place our timber industry on a sustainable footing. I consider myself an "environmentalist" I want there to be forests and timber for future generations to use and enjoy.

I'm a fifth generation australian woodworker, my grandfather, great-grandfather and great-great grandfather owned and operated sawmills. I grew up knowing about balance. The clear-felling practices that the big commercial loggers employed on forests previously maintained by my forebears dismayed my family. The fact that 99% of that clear-felled timber was exported as woodchips when, if it had been carefully milled, the great majority would have been salvageable, shows what wanton vandalism was and in some cases still is permitted.

Perhaps, if we get our act together, most of those species of animals and plants I saw as a child will still be there for my grandchildren and their grandchildren to enjoy.

In the mean time we can thank the indiscriminate practices of woodchip operators and the short-sighted actions of a single generation for having exported more craft timber as woodchips in 20 years that all Australian furniture-makers would use in 200.

That, of course, is a typical "holier-than-thou" left-wing rant, full of motherhood statements and platitudes. I have stated elsewhere why I have rejected the nonsense that it is because of deserts, distance, small population etc etc.

I live in an area where there were 2 saw mills sourced by trees no further than 3 hours transport time away - that simply cannot result in prices 5 times, and more, that for which the same quality can be obtained in the US, Canada, and Europe.

I have spoken to the family members of the owners of those mills. They tell me, and I believe them, that those sources were "sustainable". They have also told me that it is their belief that the decision not to renew their license was political, rather than economic or environmental. No amount of "market force" can hold up against a deliberate, and unjustified, reduction in supply.

I have given solid evidence that there are significant prices differences with numbers and links. In return, from people who oppose my point of view, all I have received are generalisations, interesting as they are they only serve to support my arguments as listed in my previous post.

Now, as this thread seems to have descended into ad hominem attacks (as I suspected it would), and as, with a few notable exceptions, it is no longer providing any useful data I think we'll wrap it up here.

Thanks all.

Good.

To show concern for the environment does not brand one a communist in the political sense of the word. It does make one a communist in the literal sense as the interest of the community at large is the driving force. It is interesting that the price of a few sticks of timber has become more important a discussion than the ongoing viability of a resource.
Like Horaldic, my family have also been involved in the timber industry for four generations. My Great Grandmother used to split posts and rails for my Great Grandfathers fencing business on the Darling Downs. (They bred 'em tough in those days.) When barb wire became available, Old Pop's comment was,"Now those poor bloody trees will get a chance." Even after a lifetime of logging he could still see the importance of conservation.
Retail greed has been the catch cry of the consumer for years. Often justifiably and often not. It is not our decission to determin fair margin to the retailer. It is our decission to determin what we are prepaired to pay. If we dont agree with the price, shop elsewhere. If we still are not satisfied, look to other options other than the convenience of the local retail store. Retailers and wholesalers alike, watch their turnover very closely. Any significant downturn they are on it like a shot. But while ever people keep rolling in and buying whats on offer for what is asked there will be no change. Wingeing to a retailer is a waste of time as they are the greatest wingers of all. While ever a product is selling the retailer is not interested how you feel about either the quality or the price. Should that situation change, well then he is all ears.

Oh, I should apologise for saying that we should cut down all our timber for matchwood and leave nothing for the next generation etc etc

Oh hang... on I *didn't* say that did I?

Originally Posted by rustynail

To show concern for the environment does not brand one a communist in the political sense of the word.

No, but getting together as a group, running for state and federal seats, introducing very far left policies that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the environment DOES!

Shutting down perfectly workable and sustainable saw mills for political advantage DOES!

But hey! there is an intimation here that I used the term communist (actually I didn't use it at all but I will admit that was the correct conclusion to draw) as a prejorative - that is not the case at all - the communist party is a political force, and THAT was the inference I was drawing, i.e. actions for political motivations rather than altruistic ones.

Originally Posted by rustynail

It is interesting that the price of a few sticks of timber has become more important a discussion than the ongoing viability of a resource.

And there, of course, is the rub. To you it is the "price of a few sticks of timber" - to me it is thousands of dollars. Now you may be well off and can afford it. I can't, but even if I could, I would still be annoyed at being ripped off.

Originally Posted by rustynail

If we dont agree with the price, shop elsewhere.

where??????

Originally Posted by rustynail

If we still are not satisfied, look to other options other than the convenience of the local retail store.

Dear me, once again I will re-iterate that one of the avers of this thread is that those other options do not, in general, exist.

I think the problem we have here is that nearly all trees are bent and people want to make straight things from them.

Originally Posted by springwater

I think the problem we have here is that nearly all trees are bent and people want to make straight things from them.

Finally, we get down to the real reason!

Originally Posted by garym

Oh, I should apologise for saying that we should cut down all our timber for matchwood and leave nothing for the next generation etc etc

Oh hang... on I *didn't* say that did I?



No, but getting together as a group, running for state and federal seats, introducing very far left policies that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the environment DOES!

Shutting down perfectly workable and sustainable saw mills for political advantage DOES!

But hey! there is an intimation here that I used the term communist (actually I didn't use it at all but I will admit that was the correct conclusion to draw) as a prejorative - that is not the case at all - the communist party is a political force, and THAT was the inference I was drawing, i.e. actions for political motivations rather than altruistic ones.



And there, of course, is the rub. To you it is the "price of a few sticks of timber" - to me it is thousands of dollars. Now you may be well off and can afford it. I can't, but even if I could, I would still be annoyed at being ripped off.



where??????



Dear me, once again I will re-iterate that one of the avers of this thread is that those other options do not, in general, exist.

Its all very well to be flipant about the use of timber but when it is your livelyhood things become a little more serious.
I dont buy timber from retailers, I mill my own. I have never shopped at Bunnings
I have a very good relationship with my local family owned hardware/building supply company that goes back 30years. I respect them and they respect me. Nice.
Where do you get it? There are plenty of options when you look about. Saw mills, hobby millers, timber auctions, ebay, gumtree, trading post and the list goes on. To say these options in general dont exist is incorrect. What you should be saying is you havent found them yet. These forums would be a good place to start.
There is no need to get excited, I can see what you are driving at, you want better quality for less money and you want it now. A lot of us, who make our living in the trade, feel exactly the same way. So we have set about finding alternatives. The idea of castagating retailers, putting commo labels on any group that doesnt hold your view and generally dismissing points of view that dont lend weight to your theory isnt going to make one bit of difference to your current plight. Some of my most enjoyable memories stem from time spent timber getting and the people I have met and dealt with along the way.
I could introduce you to some, but you would have to behave yourself.

At this point lets agree to disagree.

Closed