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Thread: TRA001 Spindle Runout
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14th June 2020, 03:16 PM #1GOLD MEMBER
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TRA001 Spindle Runout
I had an incident with my TRA001 today. Was routing aluminium with a template and a Carbitool 1/2" bearing bit. The bit dug in and grabbed the workpiece really hard. The router bit is now bent and unusable. I decided to check the runout in the router's spindle. I'm getting 0.12mm in the tapered bore. Does this sound excessive?
With the collet installed I got 0.23mm of runout on a ½" centring bit. That was the first attempt. Rotating the collet in the spindle may even make that worse- I didn't try.
So I definitely need a new router bit, probably a new collet and possibly a new router (which would almost be a blessing).
Appreciate any thoughts on these runout numbers.
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14th June 2020, 11:26 PM #2
That does seem like a fair bit of runout for something that should be almost perfect. I am not home until Tuesday and I can check mine then if you haven't sorted anything before that.
I have an extender that I use for a special bit and if that is only a few thou out it creates a lot of vibration.Dallas
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15th June 2020, 10:29 AM #3GOLD MEMBER
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That's very kind of you. I would appreciate your runout numbers if it's not too much trouble.
I finished the job with a ½" end mill and an auxiliary fence to make up for the lack of a bearing. Vibration didn't seem bad but the finish indicated there was a fair bit of runout.
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16th June 2020, 07:34 PM #4
Home now and I have checked the runout of the chuck. It's all bad news as mine had no detectable runout at all. I checked it on both the tapered section and the parallel section at the bottom and there was negligible movement of the needle. I could actually get more movement by putting pressure from side to side getting about 0.025 to 0.04mm movement in the bearing.
The only thing I could suggest would be to remove the chuck and refit it in case the sudden force overtightened it throwing it slightly off centre, but it's unlikely.
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16th June 2020, 08:01 PM #5GOLD MEMBER
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Thanks for the bad news.
I suspect the armature is bent. I'll remove the chuck body as you suggest (if it will come off after the massive over-tightening it's had) and check the armature runout. If it's bent I may be able to refit the chuck and regrind the taper on my lathe. Failing that, a new spindle is GBP43 plus postage from the UK.
Or I might just retire the TRA001 and refit my Makita 3600BR to the router table and add a Muscle Chuck. The only thing I didn't like about the Makita was the two-spanner, under-the-table bit changes. A Muscle Chuck would eliminate that palaver. Expensive though.
Thanks for the info.
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17th June 2020, 07:30 PM #6GOLD MEMBER
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I had another go at measuring the runout today. I had a more secure mount for the indicator and I locked the plunge lock for each measurement (I forgot to do that last time).
I measured 0.08mm (3 thou) of runout in the chuck taper.
When I fit the ½" collet and insert a bit I measure 0.12mm (5 thou) of runout right next to the collet. Then I rotated the collet a quarter of a turn with respect to the chuck and on all four occasions I got the same reading. So I think that means the problem isn't the collet.
I took the same four measurements with the ¼" collet and got a slightly worse runout of 0.13mm. This is despite the fact that the ½" collet was the "accident" collet. That further convinces me the collets are OK and the spindle is bent.
My Makita has exactly half the amount of runout (0.65mm).
To see what this all means in practice I fitted a Carbitool 1" rounding over bit into the Triton. This bit is a monster. At minimum RPM there was noticeable vibration. At higher revs I seriously thought the bit might come out of the collet. Scary stuff. I measured 0.64mm runout at the pilot bearing. You could clearly see the bit wobbling when rotated by hand. The same bit held in an ER collet in my lathe measured 0.22mm of runout.
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17th June 2020, 07:47 PM #7
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17th June 2020, 09:53 PM #8GOLD MEMBER
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17th June 2020, 10:27 PM #9
I think it means or by four. Not a happy chappy.
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17th June 2020, 11:10 PM #10
Sorry about that as I thought it was only me that wasn't seeing the emoji's and only the symbols. I have already started a thread to see if someone knows what could be wrong as it just started doing it some time ago
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20th June 2020, 01:41 PM #11GOLD MEMBER
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I removed the chuck body from the armature. A few good whacks on the locking notches with a pin punch and hammer and it came off. Only hit my knuckles once. Interestingly, there's a 5mm hex socket in the end of the armature. I've never seen that mentioned anywhere. Would probably remove the need to hit anything with a hammer when removing the chuck. Next time.
The good news is there is no measurable runout in the spindle at the bearing end or the outer end. So I put the chuck body back on but I can't get it to tighten. The chuck just keeps spinning on the thread. The odd thing is the threads don't appear to be damaged. I've never had the chuck off before and there's no swarf in the threads that would indicate they were damaged in the mishap. See pics below taken with USB microscope.
The spindle thread is M12x1. The spindle measures 11.8mm which is about right for a 12mm thread. However the internal thread of the chuck measures 11.65mm. That's too big for an M12 thread. The minor diameter of an M12 female thread is 10.9mm. So I think the thread in the chuck body is just poorly made. I'm loathe to buy a new one online and find it's just as bad, but I can't find anyone in Melbourne who might stock one I can test in the shop.
Does anyone know who stocks Triton parts in Melbourne?
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20th June 2020, 01:45 PM #12GOLD MEMBER
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USB microscope pics. These threads don't appear to be stripped to me.
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20th June 2020, 06:09 PM #13
I would say you have definitely stripped the thread in the chuck and maybe also taken some off the top the the thread on the shaft. There is only 0.54mm depth of thread from new at best and I measured the ID of the thread on an old chuck that I replaced and got 11.14mm as shown below and you are getting 11.65mm. Put the 11.8 shaft thread and the 11.65 chuck thread together and you only have 0.15mm interference. From your photo of the thread in the chuck it looks like the thread has been rounded over where it fits on the shaft and the unused sections looks good. The fact that you can't tighten it tells me the thread is definitely gone. The hex in the end of the shaft must be unique to the TRA as I have the MOF and it doesn't have one.
I have an old style chuck here that I can send to you if you want it as I don't think you will find any chuck bodies available in a Melbourne shop. Both models use the same chuck body.
All spare parts have to be brought from Tool Spares Online although Beyond Tools seem to have a few spares now.
IMG_20200620_162721.jpg IMG_20200620_162929.jpgDallas
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20th June 2020, 06:42 PM #14GOLD MEMBER
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Thanks again for your input. I agree the chuck body thread is oversize. Either by poor manufacturing or by being stripped.
“From your photo of the thread in the chuck it looks like the thread has been rounded over where it fits on the shaft and the unused sections looks good.“
I think what you’re looking at there is the unthreaded part of the chuck. I think the spiral scoring marks in that section were made by the factory threading tool. That section needs to be unthreaded to clear the unthreaded part of the armature.
thanks for the offer of the chuck body, but mine has the external threads so my collets won’t work with yours. I’ll grab a new chuck body from Tool Spares Online. Beyond Tools don’t list the chuck body as a spare.
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8th July 2020, 09:27 PM #15GOLD MEMBER
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The new chuck body arrived today. It measured 11.5mm internal. Not much smaller than the knackered one it's replacing. And 0.4mm larger than Treecycle's. It was a VERY sloppy fit on the armature. But at least I was able to tighten it up without the threads slipping. The measured runout in the taper is now 0.01mm. With a bit mounted in the ½" collet the runout is only 0.02mm. Very happy with that.
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