Thread: 14" LN Tenon Saws - My Experience

I would say that the reason you are experiencing difficulty with the rip tenon is due to technique, not the saw.

I have not used the LN, but it is likely that the teeth have less rake to make it cut aggressively. If you angle the saw blade, you effectively reduce the rake, and this will let the saw cut more easily ...



Reference: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furnitu...ndMortice.html

I have a vintage 14" Nurse (in the picture), and this cuts sweetly. I also have a 16" Wenzloff with 10 ppi, and this cuts aggressively but smoothly. I cannot imagine the LN working any less well than these saws.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks for the feedback Derek. I totally agree. Sounds like the only solution is more time in the shed!

Boz, have you run the crosscut through much wood yet? Often with new saws it takes a bit of use for the the set of the teeth to 'settle', smoothing the cut no end. This was the case with both the Adria, the Pax and some NOS Tyzack tenon saws too.

I love my 14" LN crosscut, beautiful saw and would have the rip as well but I have an old 12" S&J that I customised a while back (made a new handle and a very agresive sharpening job) that is cutting so well I haven't needed to spend the extra money. I like the long stroke of 14" saws, they are so much more natural to use than a short saw. Depends what you are cutting too. Dereks on the money with the angle of attack, should make all the difference. The LN dovetail I used for a couple of months and found I wanted just the tinyest tweek of set, so little I didn't think I had done anything but I feel more comfortable with it now. I spoke to the US before doing it and the guy I spoke to said it was easier to put more set on it than take it off so they send them out with minimal set. I also have a wide hand found that the bottom horn was all but giving me a blister. With a dodgy back I have my bench and vise a bit on the high side which changes the angle you saw at a bit so I shaved a little off and rounded the horn down a little. I have done this to the Tennon and the Dovetail.

Originally Posted by BozInOz

On the other hand the ripsaw and I are still getting to know each other. When compared to my previous Stanely tenon saw this saw cut very aggressively. So aggressively it digs and jams. I found that not only do you not have to force the saw through the cut, you in fact need to ease some of the weight of the saw itself. After cutting a number of tenons for the shaker table bracing we are now starting to get along better.

Hi Boz,

I have found that it sometimes takes a while for a new saw to "settle down" & cut smoothly; I suspect after a project or two the saw will be cutting sweetly.

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Groggy
Forum Moderator

I dont' want to use a driving analogy but it's perhaps the best I can think of. When you start driving you need to focus on each step but after a while its just by the unconscious feel.

Hand tools are a lot like that. I notice with my hand planes and chisels, I do a lot of small setting changes, cleaning sharpening etc, which I don't think about.

Relatively I'm new to good quality handsaws, so it will take time to get comfortable and I certainly welcome people's advice on technique.

(That's the same for all my forum post btw. If you see me in a photo or descripting something, and you know a better way... let me know!.)

Whats that about Groggy? did I miss something?

I've had a bit more of play and am enjoying the rip saw more than before. A lightly relaxed angle, lighter pressure, and smooth as chips. Faster then setting up any power tool as well. Even tried it on it's side... less accurate, but it still worked.





(The sample was a little biased though with softer wood than the other cuts I've been making.)

Boz - I think you've already got the right advice - rip saws are much smoother when eased back to around 35-45 degrees off perpendicular to the wood fibres as in your second pic. However, if you cut mostly harder woods, you may find it remains a bit too aggressive - these saws are set up in a country where their 'hard' woods aren't quite as tough as ours! I would hope L-N's quality control wouldn't let a tool out with badly sharpened teeth & odd heights, but it might be worth checking the tooth line against a straight edge, just to be sure. Barring that, the most likely cause of the rough action is a high rake angle.

You still have to saw straight across the grain on the last part of the cut when cutting tenon cheeks & so forth, so it's better if the saw can cope with this. I've been mucking about with rake angles a bit, and find that easing off to around 8 degrees makes a big difference to the smoothness of the action, & doesn't seem to slow down the cutting much, if at all. My large rip backsaw has 10 tpi with a bit more than the standard 5 degrees rake, and it lays into hard woods with plenty of bite, and very little roughness. So maybe when it comes time to sharpen it, you could relax the rake angle a bit & see how it goes. (Or just accept that you are going to need several more saws, optimised for hard or soft woods... )

Where's the crowd who've been going to the Sydney saw-sharpening classes with the ex-sawdoc? They should have some insights into rake and fleam angles from the master they can share with us......?

Cheers,

I've had time to have a bit more of a play with the new saws. After taking on board people's advice and a bit more practice everything went much smoother.

This tenon is 7x5.5x2cm so fairly large. I can see how the 16" could be useful.







I've also experimented cutting a sliding dovetail into curved material. Which for a first time I've ever attempted such a thing worked reassembly well. Though i would have like to try a smaller dovetail saw.

See other thread for more details: https://www.woodworkforums.com/f187/d...ml#post1192867

You needed that saw when you were doing your bench. How is the new bench by the way?

Cheerio,
Virg.

The bench is good. Certainly getting some use out of it. I picked up a vertias hold down for my bday which added another level of function. (Now I wish I had two... but anyway...)

Overall the bench is working well. I still have a few details to complete, a final sand, attaching the level, screwing down the sliding bench dog, attaching the name plate etc. There are a few things I would change. In my mind I have a better design for the sliding legvice (though as you can see it works well) and the joint between my parallel bar and chop (although a firm through tenon with wedges) has rotated with the force of the vice.

It's a disease, Dan. No sooner do you finish the bench made to last a lifetime, than your brain starts thinking about all the improvements you'll make 'next time'. Fortunately, it's a very slow disease, so you may not have to make the next one for quite a while. I made my last bench to see me out, about 25 years ago, but have been plotting an improved version since soon after it was finished. I even have some very nice Ironbark & Bluegum squirreled away for the job. The old one works well enough, it's just that I spaced the dogs a bit far apart in the shoulder vise, and it's about 200mm too short, for that once a year time when I want to hold a really long board between dogs.

Getting back on track - I think saws are like any other tool, & it does take a while to adapt to a new one. I have a pretty decent selection to turn to, but find I repeatedly pick up one or the other of my two favourites - they are both my own manufacture, & more by good luck than anything, the handle position & grip angle turned out just right. I didn't pay much attention to that detail when I started out, but I sure do now, & make sure the grip angle matches the intended use of a saw, meaning at what height on or above the bench it will most often be used at. It's not a huge thing, but it adds to the comfort and ease of use which translates into cleaner & more accurate cuts without having to work so hard at it.

With all that cutting practice, it's soon going to be time to sharpen them....

Cheers,