Thread: Use for 220 grid Norton Waterstone

Lyptus

A couple of points.

Firstly, I think the gap between 220 and 1000 may be too big - the scratches from a 220 will be deep and require quite a bit of extra work to remove with a 1000. I have a King 300 and 800, and this requires more work than removing the scratches from a 800 with a 1200.

Secondly, I really don't like combination stones. Not only are they harder to store, but there is the constant problem with contamination of grits.

Get separate stones. There is really not that much extra cost involved.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

Is a 220 stone useful though- or is it really too course. Norton claims one should use the 220 stone for initially flattening the back of plane blades and chisels. I also have a 800/4000 stone so I could go 220 to 800 to 1000? Or are you saying that I need a 400 or 600 grit stone too?

Your point about contamination of grit is well taken. However, if I go with Norton stones the difference in cost between two combination stones and four individual stones is about $80.00 US so it's not inconsequential.

- Lyptus

The cost where I am is inconsequentional, but that's another story. I could get you a slab of stone for next to nothing, but the shipping would be a nightmare...

Have you ever tried attacking one of them new fangled A2 blades? If you haven't yet and don't plan to, then maybe you don't need the coarse stuff.

For me, I have 2 A2 blades, several M2 blades, lots of nice and hard Japanese stuff plus the usual soft Marples chisels and a couple #4 blades. If I didn't have the #220 I have, and I wanted to stick with stones, I would go nuts trying to get them flat with the next step I have, that being a huge #1000 King stone. Luckily, it cuts very fast and I have no fear of compeltely disposing of it ASAP because I'd like to replace it. It's not healthy and a new one is about $20.

So, if you have hard steel in your tools, you will appreciate the coarse stone very quickly.

Contamination. I don't let it worry me. I have used the forementioned king stone as a lapping plate with #36 grit in it to grind down a rock hard stone I have. Worked great, and a clean up with the #220 fixed it lickety split. However, I do have that separate stone to scrub it clean. If I didn't, then there's a very good chance the coarse will stick, and the first time you run something over it, it's going to be imbedded in the finer stone. It's not a definite thing, but it is very possible. And it also means that you might have to spend more time working away just because of a little speck of crud.

I don't let it worry me. The stones I have that cut fast are all soft, and they grind down very quickly. If there happens to be contamination, it grinds itself out very quickly. If I had contamination on the finishing stones, then there would be problems, as there were with what seemed to be quartz imbedded in the hardest stone. It precluded me from getting a mirror polish on my tools, and also gave a noticeably ragged edge. A few minutes with a magnifying glass and an old chisel, and I got most of them little white bits out, and it now gives me an edge I cannot fault.

Yes, contamination is a problem. How big a problem depends on what you use and who you are.

I do have several A2 blades but I have also heard that using David Charlesworth's method of putting a slight back bevel on chisels and plane blades obviates the need to flatten the backs and therefore the need for a 220 grit stone. Do you think flattening the back is still necessary if one plans to use a back bevel?

- Lyptus

I would never put a backbevel on a chisel blade unless you want to spend the rest of the day getting rid of it to have a functional chisel again

Is a coarse (220 or 300) waterstone useful? Yes. This morning I was grinding a bevel on a laminated blade from an infill shoulder plane. These blades need to be dead accurate so I would rather use the LV Honing Guide Mk II to grind that my Belt Sander set up. The old 1-1/4" wide laminated steel blade is hard. The 300 stone took under 5 minutes to grind the entire bevel, and the 800 then was a quick 2 minutes, followed by the 1200 for about 1 minute. I then took a total of about 1 minute to put a 1 degree micro bevel on this using a 1200 and 8000. Whee, it cuts superbly, and it sets up perfectly.

Now, if I had attempted to grind this on the 800 waterstone alone, it would have taken an extra hour.

As Routermaniac said, DON"T put a backbevel on a chisel!!!! You want a completely flat back for these. Microbackbevels (1 degree) on plane blades are great to make dead certain you have a clean back edge to the bevel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

How do you flatten a 220 grit waterstone? I've only seen wet/dry sandpaper down to 220 grit and I've read that the 220 grit waterstone is actually equivalent to 180 grit sandpaper. Is there a cheap way to flatten the 220 grit stones without spending $60.00 US on one of those stone flatteners?

- Lyptus

I've got a set of the norton water stones and find that they're pretty good. For storage, all are stored in a stone pond (even the #4000 - #8000 combo) and they've been that way for near two years without problem.

The 220 is ok for removing large nicks and the like, but rarely gets used. I still use a diamond stone for flattening as it's quicker. The 1000 is good for rough jobs, including small nicks but I find the 4000/8000 gets the most use. After a quick comparison a while ago with WoodBorer we found his King #8000 (I think it was the King ?) gave a much more polished finish than the norton. If you use a strop with honing compound to finish the process this overcomes this and gives a great edge.

I went with the combination stones as I wasn't sure of their effectiveness on knife blades and how harsh curved ATS34 & BG42 stainless steel blades would be on the stones (Rc/HRC 62). As it happens the stones don't wear that quickly. For about $95CA you can pick up two combination stones which is more attratice than $50 -$150 for each grit. In future I might get single stones to replace the 8000 and 4000, but that's a few years away yet.

I rough flatten them on plaster sanding mesh ($2 per sheet) laid ontop of float glass and finish off lapping with the carborundum powder, again on the glass.

Common sense says that if you rinse the stones before and after use (of each side) with fresh water you shouldn't have any problems with contamination.

It all depends on how fussy you are & what you are trying to achieve.

The norton combination stones are cheap as chips BTW get the bigger one.
the jump from one grit to the other is big, but you wont use the coarse side unless you have a "problem". The fine side isn't all that fine & if you want real sharp you will need finer.

If you are a "typical" chippie the fine side will be quite fine enough & you will need the coarse side for grinding out those dings for the nails you hit.

Well may be not.
I have a stone like is in question & if I wanted to get real sharp real fast & I had the cash & go with a selection of diamond stones.
These stones are a general purpose article & not aimed at the fine wood worker.

BTW they arent real flat right out of the box either.

cheers

Originally Posted by routermaniac

I would never put a backbevel on a chisel blade unless you want to spend the rest of the day getting rid of it to have a functional chisel again

In 100% agreement on this one. Better to take the time with a new chisel and get the face dressed up. Doesnt take that long with the right stones.

Originally Posted by lyptus

Derek,

How do you flatten a 220 grit waterstone? I've only seen wet/dry sandpaper down to 220 grit and I've read that the 220 grit waterstone is actually equivalent to 180 grit sandpaper. Is there a cheap way to flatten the 220 grit stones without spending $60.00 US on one of those stone flatteners?

- Lyptus

I soak a sheet of 120 grit wet and dry on a sheet of 10mm float glass. The water surface tension holds the paper flat on the glass. I pencil up the face of the stone and work it on the wet and dry untill all pencil marks are removed.

The frequency with which you need to flatten your stones can be reduced if you take care when using the stone....work the stone in such a fashion that wear is even over the whole stone surface. if youre working very small chisels use the side of the stone..less chance of gouging out a hole in same.

I generally flatten a stone after 100 passes over same with a tool.

I'd go with the 120 grit for a 220 waterstone as well, but try and get this in a drywall/plasterboard mesh (and 220 mesh for all other waterstones). This is a much better medium than sandpaper since the mesh does not clog up. Also, I find that my King waterstones flatten much more easily when wet, and very poorly when dry.

Lastly, as with all waterstones, flatten frequently and you only have a minor amount to do each time. The lower grits can last about 2 or 3 blades, but the highest grits should be done every blade (I'm talking about a few swipes on the mesh).

All this is much more easily done with the right setup. Mine is my "waterstone board" (ask the guys who attended the shapening workshop what they thought of it).

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=17404

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by lyptus

Derek,

How do you flatten a 220 grit waterstone? I've only seen wet/dry sandpaper down to 220 grit and I've read that the 220 grit waterstone is actually equivalent to 180 grit sandpaper. Is there a cheap way to flatten the 220 grit stones without spending $60.00 US on one of those stone flatteners?

- Lyptus

In my opinion, your better off ditching the concept of a stone coarser than the 800. And use coarse good quality cloth backed sandpaper belts on glass or whatever you decide is flat enough. Speeds up the process immensly, especially if you've got a stuburn material. Long big uni-directional strokes. In my book its far better than pissy little movements on a stone thats constantly rounding. And it will if you've got a lot of flatterning to do. So the question is always playing on your mind " has the stone rounded too much yet ?" ..." Should I stop and flattern the stone again before continuing ?"....." But, I just did that 3 minutes ago !!" ........Think stones are good for final polishing requirements. ie. the 800 or 1200 then a 6000 or 8000 after a burr or near burr has been established from a grinding process. Not much work is needed from there so the stones won't wear in the MIDDLE of it all.

As for grinding bevels, I use a regular wheel AlO wheel (frequently trued square <- very important). Whatever used I think it should be a machine process. Derek's got some kind of jig set up over a belt sander hasn't he that I've read works well.... Maybe something like that.

For chisel sharpening, I reckomend a hardfelt buffing wheel (vibration free mounting, well trued, loaded with green compound) Its by far the best way IMO of quickly establishing a polished razor sharp edge immediatly from the grinder. No medium or polishing stone; no sharpening guide; surprisingly not difficult when done by hand after practise. Gets you back to your work faster and you wont groove your stones as much with little annoying valleys that have to be flatterned out all the time. And the buffing wheel is used in the shop for many other tools as well ...like..

- jointer and thicknesser knife (need proper jigging of course though)
- knifes of all kinds (do my straightrazor with it)
- all carving chisels
- drawknifes
- makes sharpening skew chisels a breeze....
etc

But it has to be a HARD felt wheel. And it must be well TRUED. So when its up to speed (at least 3000rpm) when you rest your finger on it, it feels almost as smooth as it is when stopped. So must have it mounted well fixed with ball bearing workhead, no bushing.

The downside with buffing wheels is 'rounding'. If you repeatably try to get a sharp edge by buffing a previously buffed edge the final effective sharpening angle will get too high, higher than it looks. Could get as high as 50 degrees I reakon. But its easily got around. You just ensure that you lightly regrind a burr on the grinder for a few seconds before every buffing attempt. Sounds difficult, but it an't, as long as you've got plenty of light and watch the development of the burr closely.

I'm raving again. Seeya.

I know where to go to buy a hard 6" felt wheel and plastic inset bushings but where do you buy a ball bearing workhead and what is it exactly?

- Lyptus