Thread: Another 30 second mortise - and floating tenons with hand tools

Originally Posted by MartinCH

..... If trying for a deep end grain mortise have not figured out an easy hand tool way of cleaning out the bottom end grain. Can get to about a 1:1 depth with hand tools alone currently.....

The lock-mortise chisel was designed specifically for the job:

L_M chisel.jpg


Cheers,

Thanks Ian.

Investigated the lock mortise chisel. I have a small chisel of that style - though I calling that chisel - pop up sprinkler recovery tool. Perfect for reaching inside an irrigation pipe past the easily damaged threads to pull up the pop up sprinkler head back up. Handy when cleaning out blocked sprinklers.

The lock mortise chisel can sever long fibres or at least was able to do so on the two timbers I tried. Made quite deep end grain mortises easily

Also, changed the pattern in which the holes are drilled. Better to drill at the ends of the mortise first before plunging in with the two angled holes - greater accuracy and you can feel the angled hole breakout into the other hole - overall an improvement.


Also has anyone seen any historical evidence of floating tenons made with hand tools? It would have been possible as I am using old tools.

Regards

Martin

Martin, I only use a lock-mortise chisel for very deep holes, you need to chop out enough with a conventional chisel before you can safely lever against the ends of the mortise with the curved chisel. Most mortises in conventional cabinetry can be done with a regular mortise chisel. I reckon this style is a bit neglected these days, the range you can buy new is very restricted, but that's hardly surprising, they are definitely a once-per-blue-moon tool in typical joinery work. Mortised locks aren't used on much other than reproductions or box-making these days.

Originally Posted by MartinCH

....Also has anyone seen any historical evidence of floating tenons made with hand tools? It would have been possible as I am using old tools.....

I have never seen floating tenons on old pieces made in the hand-work era, except as part of a later repair., but my experience of truly old stuff is extremely limited. Auscab would be able to shed more light on whether or not they found any uses back in the 18th C., but I think they are a development of the machine era. Dowels were the choice for eliminating the extra work of M&T joinery when the machine age started in earnest. Dowels actually have a very long history, going back to early Egypt at least, but their use certainly picked up when mass production was introduced.

If you are using hand tools only, floating tenons make little sense to me, it's far easier to cut a tenon on one piece than dig out an extra mortise.....

Cheers,

"If you are using hand tools only, floating tenons make little sense to me, it's far easier to cut a tenon on one piece than dig out an extra mortise.....
"


Ian

Only takes about 30 seconds or so to make a mortise in timber with hand tools- end grain, side grain, it does not matter. The lock mortise chisel did allow me to make "deep" end grain mortise that will take a little longer but deep is not always needed.
The cross drill or knife methods are both easy methods and knock out mortises rapidly.

A tenon is harder to shape, it would 3 to 5 minutes to make one by hand all going smoothly to make a medium sized tenon - and there's possibly of chipping a shoulder. Also going that quick is anticipating accurate stock, if there are corrections , well you know - time flys.

Pattern that the mortise is drilled - gimlets and star M f type bits will drill angles easily.

The triangular section at the bottom gave trouble for an end grain mortise. the timber bent rather than cut with a standard chisel. The lock mortise chisel did a better job at removing. But for smaller mortises that bit a t the bottom does not need to removed.

Mortise making is by essence quick. Tried chopping out a mortise a couple of times, but it was tedious.

mortise drill pattern.jpg

In Australia, floating tenons are a pretty rare sight in the 18th century English furniture that Ive seen. I'm sure restorers in the UK would probably see them more or in other uses.
They do show up in table tops sometimes. Its a good way of joining boards for a rustic top. It allows the boards to move individually over time and that plays a big part in them lasting as the way they were built compared to jointing and gluing the edges. They survive periods of neglect better. Spill some milk and it ends up on your knees though .

IMG_4052a.jpg

IMG_4054a.jpg

Rob.

Thanks Auscab- how did they make those mortises? Are there any clues? That is quite a few to chop >

Also a second graphic showing a succession of sloped hole for longer slots.

stopped ends.jpg

Hi Roy

Here's picture of a star M F type bit. Please let me know if you requesting something else. Bits like this and gimlets are happy to in an angle clearing out the waste in a mortise easily (compared to chopping)

Star M Japanese F-Style Anti-Burr Drill Bits with Hex Shank — Taylor Toolworks

Curious about the time it takes to drill the holes and then clean the mortise, and at a given size.

I would guess a cabinetmaker would mortise something like the mortises in the table boards in about two minutes each.

I recall someone talking about budgeting for a domino and comparing it to Warren Mickley's time to make a small mortise, and the budgeted time was about the same.

I'm sure there is some time for thinking and such with the domino, and Warren's time is probably just continuous work, but someone working by hand would've been doing that - working in a continuous rhythm.

the last time I cut mortises, I was focused less on stopping and fitting and testing and more on cutting them so that they would fit "tight enough" but without any fitting, and they took about 3 minutes each in softwoods on a bed (so large mortises, but softwoods).

Not religiously attached to doing it a certain way or claiming anyone else should, so not discouraging the post by any means.

Hi David

Pretty close to 30 seconds for the drilling and cleaning for a "small say 20x20x 8 mortise bit but 30 x30x 10 would not be much different.

My drill bits are pretty sharp on the sides so they will take out the small triangle bits above them by twisting in that direction. As mortise is small those triangles are small and come out easily. The wedge at the bottom generally is left there but lock mortise chisel makes short work of it- but removing it adds time/

Note with sheet products I use the knife mortise method its - as quick and easier to be depth accurate. But that method does not allow end grain mortise's.


For marking I run a line right across and visually estimate the opening size.
Floating tenons only require the depth to accurate.

Fitting tenons is slower, making larger mortises/ tensions and squaring up the ends.

PS - not working in softwoods- chopping mortises in softwoods is about at least half the effort and likely a third.

Originally Posted by MartinCH

Floating tenons only require the depth to accurate.

Fitting tenons is slower, making larger mortises/ tensions and squaring up the ends.

I may be misunderstanding your method, but are you saying the mortises can be inaccurate and the tenons are fine-tuned to be a good fit in the mortice? If so, isn’t the time saved by rough-cutting the mortise offset by the time spent fettling the tenon?

" If so, isn’t the time saved by rough-cutting the mortise offset by the time spent fettling the tenon?"


The mortise isn't rough cut. But a large one with squared ends will take longer than 30 seconds. There is chisel work to sguare up the ends and perhaps to clear the triangles missed by the sloped bit. By large I suggesting something like 120x25 x 60mm deep - squared ends. Not sure exact times on this size hole. I would be using multiple adjacent sloped holes and a large bit to make this mortise. But it is outsize the range for the "30 second mortise"


The 30 second hand made mortises I was trying to define as similar in nature and size to those festool domino can make - (with round ends)

Originally Posted by MartinCH

Thanks Auscab- how did they make those mortises? Are there any clues? That is quite a few to chop

I would say they just marked them out with a mortise gauge and removed the wood with a mortise chisel.
Ive never had an original top like that apart to inspect.
I do the same in tops but used the Domino and have only put one peg each side . I suppose three pegs each side has better holding but it looks a bit busy.
Chisel and chain mortisers is one thing I now have a few of. When I first started building furniture full time rather than just restoring and making something new once or twice a year I was very glad to get my first chisel mortiser after years of doing mortices by hand . It was a huge saving in time .

That's not a few to chop, this is .
48 of them plus they are haunched .
They are for one Oak island bench with six drawers. Three each side.
Using the mighty Wadkin chisel and chain mortiser they are leaning on.

IMG_3677a.jpg

Rob.

I have to confess, digging out mortises is one of the few jobs for which I gladly turn to a machine. Mine is a pretty cheap bench-top generic thing, but adequate for my modest needs. Setting it up is a bit of a fiddle, the depth control is about as basic as it gets & the rack that sets the fence is very coarse & jumpy, but now I'm used to it it takes me less than a minute to get it ready to go (excluding touching up the chisel & bit, which I always do before starting).

What I like is it bangs out mortise after mortise more accurately & far quicker than I could ever achieve with chisel & mallet (I did that for quite a few years, but not with the regularity & intensity Rob would have done, so never got really good at it). Best of all, a HCM does it quietly.

If you're a purist, a HCM is still a machine, but the result is very close to what a skilled craftsman would achieve, and far, far quicker in my hands! I occasionally re-set the depth to chop haunches, but for a pair of doors, say, I find it easier to knock out the chip for the haunch with a chisel. You do need to keep the chisels sharp, though, or you can end up with a right mess (damhok!).

The only downside is that when I do have to occasionally chop a mortise by hand in a spot the machine can't manage, I'm totally out of practice & it takes me twice as long as it used to....

Cheers,