Thread: 78 rebate plane lever cap screw

Not sure if this site helps but they list a lot of thread sizes for various planes

General Hand Plane notes, sizes, threads and misc info | TimeTestedTools


Excellent explanation of Stanley thread sizes

https://www.tttg.org.au/Content/Stan...20Part%202.pdf

I'm in the United States, so this may or may be useful; but My English Stanley lever cap looks to be 1/4"-18. I know Stanley used Imperial/SAE thread patterns on the U.S. planes, and it's my impression they did the same on the English-built planes. 1/4"-18 is not a standard Imperial size (what Americans call National Coarse is 1/4"-20; National Fine is 1/4"-28).

If your plan is to use it, and you can't find anyone in Oz with a replacement screw (I imagine you don't want to pay postage from any of the U.S. or English old tool parts purveyors, although I can recommend one if you do; send me a private message, although I don't visit this forum every day, so can't promise a prompt response), and if you can locate a suitable fine-thread screw, it's possible to retap coarse threads with a fine thread of the same size. This may sound unlikely, but I've even held automotive generator brackets to the crankcase by retapping coarse to fine in the same size. The minor diameter of a fine thread is larger than the minor diameter of a coarse thread, so there seems to be enough metal left to make it work. Or, if you think you'll still have enough iron around a larger hole, you can drill it out and retap it for the next size up.

Originally Posted by BobL

I'm resurrecting and old 78 rebate plane and there's no lever cap screw.
It looks like the screw is 1/4" BSW and a 1/4" BSW will start but only progress about 2 turns.

Looking at my other 78, the cap screw thread appears to be 18TPI as opposed to 20TPI for standard 1/4" BSW.

Any ideas?

well first off ...
do you intend to resurrect the #78 or restore it? There being a difference between the two terms.
Restoration implies an as close as possible adherence to Stanley's original #78 when making repairs,
Resurrection is more about what will work to make a the #78 into a functioning rebate plane.
There is also a significant price difference between a functioning and a restored #78.

If you want a functioning #78, just re-tap the screw thread.
If you want a restored #78 perhaps best to chase a copy of the required screw.

Unless you really need to restore the #78, I suggest you go the re-tapping route.

Bob, I think going up a size from the current thread would be the simplest option if you can't find a 'proper' screw or know someone with a lathe who could make a new one with the existing thread size. There is plenty of metal around the hole on my 78, so I don't think it would weaken the part. Drill sizes recommended in the table I use are 6.8mm for M8 and 6.6 for 5/16 BSW., but I'm pretty confident you'd get away with a 6.5mm hole in the softish stuff the LC is cast from (a much easier size to procure!). An 8mm tap from the BIG Green Shed currently costs about $15 and a 5/16" BSW is 50c less if you want to stay with Imperial. That way, you should find it a little easier to get a thumbscrew that will do the job for you.

If you are loathe to wreck the existing LC, it would not be hard to make a new one from scratch, even if you have no prior metalworking experience. It's a very simple thing, apart from the ridge along the right side, which I assume is supposed to be a shavings deflector, but on mine, at least, has no effect whatever; the shavings either curl up in the throat or fall out as they see fit (or more likely depending on the wood being planed), so I'd not bother trying to copy that. I measured mine at about 8mm at the thickest point, but I'm quite sure 1/4" or 6mm mild steel would do the job very adequately. Years ago, I acquired an old 150 spokesave that was missing its LC & made a new one from mild steel - it's still going strong...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

It's a very simple thing, apart from the ridge along the right side, which I assume is supposed to be a shavings deflector, but on mine, at least, has no effect whatever; the shavings either curl up in the throat or fall out as they see fit (or more likely depending on the wood being planed), so I'd not bother trying to copy that.

We're digressing here from the original question, but that's part of the fun, right?

I learned by accident a couple of years ago that the ridge along the right side of the lever cap on the 78 (and, if I recall correctly, other similar rabbet planes, Stanley or not) does a far better job of deflecting shavings if I make sure that it's flush with the right side of the plane body. I used to just let it sit randomly where it wanted, and found the throat jamming. As soon as I got in the habit of aligning it to the body, shavings cleared the throat far, far better.

Thanks for the responses Bill and Ian - much appreciated.

I do intend to use my 78 but would like to keep the original threads if I can.

Interestingly both my working 78 and the one I'm restoring/resurrecting (R/R) uses 3/16 24TPI threads for the blade screw but my mates 78 (which we are also R/R) seems to be using something else. I have not been able to find a screw in my box of all sorts to fit it.

I have a MW lathe so I think I can turn up something suitable, the mates 78 is also missing the lever cap and screw.

This all kicked off when my mate brought around 2 of his father's old planes, a complete but rusty 5 1/2, and a bright blue and rust 78 missing a few parts. The 5 1/2 had broken rear handle and bent front tote, chipped paint and covered in gummy orange residue (most likely paint).

I dragged out my "box of plane parts" that I was given about 10 years ago to see if I could find some replacements and what I found surprised me. Except for a #5 Bailey, they appear to be all parts for Records and Falcons As well as the nearly complete 78, there are enough parts to make 2 number 3s and 2 number 5's There's also "loads" of screws, threaded rods for handles, knobs and handles, but no 78 cap screws!

3 of the planes (my 78, and the mates 78 and 5 1/2) have been in an electrolysis bath and 2 are back to bare metal.

I wish I had taken some pre R/R photos but here are some photos of the R/R process

Mates 5 1/2 after electrolysis - all the rust and most of the paint came off easily on the flat surfaces - there was some paint left in the corners that a small SS wire brush was able to remove. The shine is just some temporary WD40
ICorrados5.jpg

Here is the mates 78 after 24 hours in the electrolysis tank - rust is gone but lots of paint remaining.
I'm leaving that to him to attend to.
Corrados78.jpg

Here's my 78 after electrolysis the paint seemed to just slip of this one
My78.jpg

The mate is only interested in resurrection for his planes.
He's made a new rear handle from some Jarrah for the 5 1/2 and as he has no lever cap for the 78 so unless we can find one we'll probably just make this.

Originally Posted by BobL

Thanks for the responses Bill and Ian - much appreciated.

I do intend to use my 78 but would like to keep the original threads if I can.

Interestingly both my working 78 and the one I'm restoring/resurrecting (R/R) uses 3/16 24TPI threads for the blade screw but my mates 78 (which we are also R/R) seems to be using something else. I have not been able to find a screw in my box of all sorts to fit it.

I have a MW lathe so I think I can turn up something suitable, the mates 78 is also missing the lever cap and screw.

This all kicked off when my mate brought around 2 of his father's old planes, a complete but rusty 5 1/2, and a bright blue and rust 78 missing a few parts.

Here is the mate's 78 after 24 hours in the electrolysis tank - rust is gone but lots of paint remaining.
I'm leaving that to him to attend to.
Corrados78.jpg

Here's my 78 after electrolysis the paint seemed to just slip of this one
My78.jpg

The mate is only interested in resurrection for his planes.
he has no lever cap for the 78 so unless we can find one we'll probably just make this.

The BLUE colour indicates that your mate's #78 is actually a Record #78 (or faint possibility a Woden #W78). If it's a Woden and not the Record copy it is probably worth restoring to original condition. The keys are Record's BLUE colour and the fore and aft holes for the fence rods.


Would pay to check carefully before going further

PS
I believe that Veritas copied the Record rebate plane when casting the [L & R] Veritas rebate plane and that the fence rods are interchangeable between the Record and Veritas planes

see above

which would also explain why the thread and screw sizes are different between the two #78 planes -- your mate has a Record #78, you have an Australian cast Stanley #78.

Originally Posted by ian

The BLUE colour indicates that your mate's #78 is actually a Record #78 (or faint possibility a Woden #W78). If it's a Woden and not the Record copy it is probably worth restoring to original condition. The keys are Record's BLUE colour and the fore and aft holes for the fence rods.

Would pay to check carefully before going further

PS
I believe that Veritas copied the Record rebate plane when casting the [L & R] Veritas rebate plane and that the fence rods are interchangeable between the Record and Veritas planes

Thanks Ian

The blu rebate has an "A78" marking on one side and a "WS B'ham, England" on the other.

Ahhh right!

Number 78 Plane Type Study - WS Tools Birmingham

Damn I'll have to keep my eye out for WS planes. I quite like the blue with the brass lever caps.

Originally Posted by bueller

Ahhh right!

Number 78 Plane Type Study - WS Tools Birmingham

Damn I'll have to keep my eye out for WS planes. I quite like the blue with the brass lever caps.

Yeah thanks Dan have just found that site myself.

Well, Bob, after saying this morning that making a new LC should be easy, I thought I'd better put my money where my mouth (or typing finger) is. Some things look easy & turn out to be more difficult than we think they're going to be - had that happen more than once!

So I rummaged through my box of scrap bits & found a wee bit of 6mm mild steel that was about the right size, and set to to marking it out. The first thing I noticed was how off-centre the thumbscrew & retaining screw slots are - they are placed nearly 3mmm to the right of the centre of the upper part of the LC. Of course, the lower RHS is wider as it has to reach through to cover the blade to the side of the plane. Note the ridge I mentioned on the RHS, which I think is supposed to be a shavings deflector: LCs a.jpg

After a bit of adjustment on the right side (there is very little clearance allowed for the LC to snuggle up to the side-wall & slip over the retaining screw), it fits fine, so I went ahead & finished shaping it & smoothing the curve. I popped it on my plane & took it for a test-drive. No problems: New LC.jpg

The shavings rolled up the throat just the same as they do with the original LC: Old LC.jpg

So much for any shavings deflection! These are pretty coarse shavings, of course, I was taking heavy cuts to form the rebate quickly. Finer shavings don't tend to hold up & fall out of the escapement more readily.

So there you have it - it wasn't difficult, took me about 2 hours including finding the steel & making the thumbscrew (I gave it an M6 thread). LCs b.jpg

It works fine as is, and is about as refined as the original, but you could polish it up (or give it a crinkle finish like the original) as desired. If your mate wants it, he can have it for postage (plus $5 for the thumbscrew). But if either of you is a skilled metal worker, you can probably do better in half the time. The most tricky part is copying the RHS profile (looking down from the top), fairly closely so you can drop it in the plane over the retaining screw..

Cheers,

Thanks Ian - that is very kind - I will ask said friend.

Here's a side by side with my old Stanley (belonged originally to my Uncle who gave it to me in 1967) and the 78 "Carter" I'm R&Ring

The differences look like the handle krinkling handle pattern handle and a 3 way nicker on the Stanley.
Were as the Carter has 2 was nicker and a smooth handle.
Pairof78s.jpg