Thread: A2 blades from Veritas

Evan

PM-V11 and O1 tie for sharpness. A2 lags behind.

The reason for the popularity of A2 over the years has been (1) it is able to hold an edge about twice as long as O1, and (2) it is less prone to warping in manufacture (hence cheaper to produce blades than O1). It takes a very decent edge, although it has a reputation for chipping a little more easily than other steels, but I have no difficulty using it in BU planes (where the vector forces are low). There are also some excellent chisels made with A2, such a Blue Spruce, and mine get very sharp indeed.

PM-V11 will hold an edge about twice as long as A2 (which is 4 times as long as O1 if you are paying attention! ). It takes a potentially better edge than O1 owing to the nature of its manufacture - powdered metal. The grain structure is very fine. This steel does not rust, and it has really excellent impact resistance as well as abrasion resistance. In other words, it is equally good for plane and chisel blades.

O1 is easiest to hone and can be done on basic oilstones (so can all steel, but this requires technique). A2 and PM-V11 require about twice as much work, about equal, but when you move up to appropriate media, such as a Sigma waterstone, then they hone as easily as anything else. It is always horses for courses.

Overall, PM-V11 is the steel to get.

p.s. Do you know where the name PM-V11 comes from?

Regards from Perth

Derek

What you mention, plus knowing the knife guys, they tend to be boring in their nomenclature... Powdered Metal Version 11 I'd wager.

I look at the steel shops and it's all like this.

Shame. Dwarf Forge Dragon Slayer version 6 has a better ring to it...

Derek, thank you!

An excellent write up. I've saved the text in my reference folder.

I'll get one blade for the smoother, give it a crack.

Then you may like the truth

The key lies with 11 (eleven). Rob Lee (El Presidente of Lee Valley, maker of Veritas) has a great sense of humour. The name is inspired by the Spinal Tap movie, where "these go to eleven" is a reference to going beyond the usual ten.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I'll give a plug for the powder-metal blades. If you plane any really hard woods you'll quickly appreciate it's ability to hold onto a keen edge far longer than A2 or O1. I was an early uptaker of A2, in my constant quest for blades that don't need sharpening every 5 minutes whn working on very hard woods. A2 holds edges better than O1, but is a bit harder to sharpen to a really fine edge. I find it good as plane blades, lasts about 2x O1, but I've decided it's not so great for chisels due to the aforementioned propensity to chip - just drive an A2 chisel (sharpened even at the recommended steepish bevel angle) into Gidgee or She-Oak & you'll see what I mean!

I had great trouble honing the first PM-V11 blade I got, because I was still using oilstones. I'd spend ages on my finest stones and could barely produce a shaving edge. I was on the point of deciding I'd been seduced by marketing hype, but a switch to modern waterstones made a world of difference. With just a little more effort, my PM blades are now as keen as any O1 and stay that way far longer. After a rocky start, my relationship with powder-metal has blossomed into true love - as existing blades wear out, on my most-used bench planes, I'm replacing them with PMVs for sure....

Cheers,

Ian, what are you using to hone the PM blades?

Several years ago I switched from Shapton to Sigma in the higher grits because they did not cut it (pun intended ). Spyderco are also good, if you want the oilstone-like experience, but slow.

For me, the key to honing is how well we grind.

I guess I am saying, work smart not hard, and I was motivated to post when you wrote “a little more effort”.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Cant add of use to this great conversation. Just a bit of technical trivia.

Some years ago I used to import high end steels for (knifemakers). These were made by Crucible USA who made a range of stainless and non stainless particle metallurgy (PM) steels by sintering usig heat and compression of particles, not fusion.

In these products the "V" (then) referred to Vanadium (eg CPM 3V and CPM 10V) which conferred extreme edge holding properties (and cost). Carbides formed during heat treatment are where the edge holding I believe. A bit like Stellite. I think M4 had tungsten.

Euge, you are not wrong about the knife guys. They are utterly obsessed. They are constantly on the search for "sharper" as if its a Holy Quest

Originally Posted by derekcohen

....Ian, what are you using to hone the PM blades? ....

Derek, I use a fine diamond plate and an 8,000 Ohishi stone for honing.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

......For me, the key to honing is how well we grind.......

I guess I am saying, work smart not hard, and I was motivated to post when you wrote “a little more effort”......

Indeed a nice clean hollow grind makes hand sharpening a much easier & pleasanter task. I had another epiphany in that respect when I acquired a CBN wheel a couple of years ago. Cheap they ain't but if you like cool grinding, CBN is cool, man!...

I don't think you can deny that PMV11 takes a little more effort than O1 whatever sharpening media is employed. It's not that much more and the extra is repaid handsomely in edge-retention, so I'm not complainin', just sayin'.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Euge, you are not wrong about the knife guys. They are utterly obsessed. They are constantly on the search for "sharper" as if its a Holy Quest

... and woodworkers are not?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Sorry about the missing words in my post. (Was in a hurry and could not edit when I tried.)

Knifemakers and woodworkers are always looking for exception appearance and performance IMO. The obsession to appearance and performance I did understand so I wanted to offer them the very best I could find at the time ~10 yrs ago.

New alloys are always being produced by companies like Crucible. I don't wish to highjack this excellent discussion. Here is one small final addition in case you are interested (not exactly new but recent) the addition of Niobium which forms harder carbide than Tungsten & many other metals. It these that do te cutting on the cutting edge.

CPM S110V(Crucible) - ... Very high wear resistance and better corrosion resistance than CPM S125V steel. Interesting part is the addition of the Niobium to the alloy, which forms very hard, very fine carbides. They're harder than Vanadium carbides and form in substantial amounts even at lower hardness. Can get up to 64HRC.

Crucible CPM S110V Knife Steel Composition Analysis Graph, Equivalents And Overview Version 4.36

New alloys are always being produced by companies like Crucible. I don't wish to highjack this excellent discussion. Here is one small final addition in case you are interested (not exactly new but recent) the addition of Niobium which forms harder carbide than Tungsten & many other metals. It these that do te cutting on the cutting edge.

CPM S110V(Crucible) - ... Very high wear resistance and better corrosion resistance than CPM S125V steel. Interesting part is the addition of the Niobium to the alloy, which forms very hard, very fine carbides. They're harder than Vanadium carbides and form in substantial amounts even at lower hardness. Can get up to 64HRC.

Euge, the problem with steel like this is that it is difficult, if not impossible, for even an enthusiastic woodworker to get a sharp edge. It's simply too much work. I gave up on CPM-10V. I have, and use, 3V and M4, but I cannot imagine many others wanting to do so. (They are nice steels).

Regards from Perth

Derek