Thread: Advice on Japanning

Too, as a side note, you will see older recipes that add lamp black or carbon black in the asphaltum to really really make it more pigmented black.

For tools, I can't see how this would be helpful and if you do want to do something like that, make sure the pigment is *very* fine. the old texts mention lamp black having particles a fraction of a micron.

I don't find any such thing on the market now and see a lot that are listed as 400 grit or so. Be picky about anything you add so that it doesn't create a grainy surface.

Originally Posted by D.W.

tool 2 .......

.........Just one coat now leads to this:

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Looks great, DW! I used my painted plane for the first time yesterday and scratched it straight away, but I'm not worried. I'm going to try japanning on the next few.
The working time and coverage sounds good for someone who's messy like me, I should be able to get a decent finish.

I found the limit to thickness - mentioned above several times that a heat of the jar that I have got the asphaltum all in solution and now I don't have enough room in the jar to thin it and no other glass jar (turpentine will make its way through plastic even if it doesn't hurt the plastic, it'll evaporate slowly through it - learned that the hard way with turps from portugal - the bottle over a period of time sucked itself in and lost a lot of weight).

I need to convince someone here to eat a new jar of salsa or a small jar of jam or something to thin this mix.

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so, this is the lever cap that was full of pits, and if you can get past the dull look in the center (what happens when someone grinding metal doesn't wipe their hands off and picks up stuff out of the toaster oven that's still warm). I'll wipe it off with oil later today, just wanted to make sure it has a low chance of being reactive to oil before I do it.

mix is too thick, though. As soon as I get a jar a little bigger than the spice jar that I made this mix in, I'll thin and finally strain the dots out. They're still there.

I'll wait before taking a picture of the spokeshave as I grabbed it by both handles and it's as dull as a remedial student in calculus class thanks to a whole layer of fine dust I failed to think about. The japanning is just too thick on it, though, and only maybe OK on this particular shave because it was so pitted and it filled in. I may attempt to wetsand it lightly to give it a uniform surface and clean off the dust that's stuck on it. It's not sticky" like finish, but if you have dirt on your hands, you can print it on top loosely, and then attempts to fix the solution have you "sanding and probably rubbing" the dirt in on a finish that's a day away from being a good bit harder.

I'm determined to find something good (in terms of making the mix strainable) that doesn't require running the resin because I don't think most people will do that. if it has to be thinned more than desirable to strain it, the thinning will still just be turps and that could be warmed and evaporated out. I can confirm that it lays out more evenly and brighter with a thinner mix than the hot tar-like consistency, though. if I'm right (probably am in this case because it's just a varnish), thinning it with turpentine is far less important than the ratio of oil to asphaltum that remains after the turps bakes off.

So, one more - still waiting for a jar twice the size of the one I'm using to free up. Still think there's no reason to use this at a thickness that can't be strained (no change in oil to asphaltum ratio, but thinning with more turpentine should be fine and better).

Still reiterating that I dealt more with the mix being too thick on this spokeshave and could've waited until someone finished salsa or jelly here, but didn't!

i have one more spokeshave that's filthy with no japanning at all.

that said, this one:
* had the thick stuff
* still little dots that are only addressable by the most picky
* then I made it dirty with metal dust and wet sanded that off and the little nubs (using linseed oil)
* and then I put turpentine on a rag, and then a dab of the asphaltum on it and "top coated" the dull looking wetsand area

that's to just get this done and back on the shelf.

it was nice to confirm that thicker isn't better and find the limit where it's so thick it lays out thick and not smooth - avoids saying later it can't be too thick.

Once I thin it, I'll confirm that like the first go around, it's better thin (but by then should also be totally smooth).

The feel....still as Liberace would say. Wonderful. the rest of the details are just ironing out something easy that doesn't require over-oiling and under-resin in the mix (too soft of a result), and finding the version that lays out flat with no little specks of anything in it at all.

But with any of these go arounds, to get a lifetime finish that won't scratch easily and won't cost that much? All of them do it. The control to have nothing dry and no rush before adding heat, and then having a perfect cure under heat - like being able to push a button on a remote and way better than guessing if a fast drying finish like lacquer "is it still moving and will it level? or did it just film on the surface and now it's iffy because it's a surface film with soft finish under it?" the heat just does weeks' worth of drying work all at once.

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I have a little can of japanning from the site I posted a link to earlier. The maker, Greg Ricketts, filters it at 100 mesh, so it's unlikely to have the particles David is talking about.

The lever cap of a Birmingham block plane was easy to clean and it's the piece I'm starting with.

The varnish brushed really smooth I could not see any grit. Brushed on a thin layer. It baked for about 4 hrs at about 375f, the electric oven is under powered. It cured hard and not tacky. The surface is fairly smooth with no brush marks, the layer is so thin that it's translucent in some places and the color is a very dark brown. The roughness of the casting telegraphs through the varnish.

I applied a second coat this morning and it's in the oven again. We'll see if the second coat covers some of the cast roughness and the color darkens towards black.

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Looks great - I'm kind of jealous as I sit and wait for a bigger jar to come free so I can strain mine and have room to thin it further.

hopefully, I can prove that we can just make the exact same mix. Mine was thinner like that from the start, and I think thinner is the way to go as long as it's not thin because the resin is cut short.

when mine was thin, there were a bunch of areas after the first coat that looked a little brown, but they were gone with the next coat.

Any comments on smell? I would suspect you didn't have any issue with smoke or really strong smell as I haven't either -I smell the turpentine an the nutty smell of the linseed oil curing quickly, but that's it. And at 450F, still no smoke.

The instructions for your mix suggest that it's not a cooked varnish - and there's no need for it to be if it the oil and resins link on whatever is being painted. I'm fairly sure at this point that they do.

Even if screening gets rid of the "baddies" in mine, I'm still going to run it, though, and try to fuse it in the pot as I'm curious also about it as a brushing varnish - perhaps on wood.

Not going to encourage *anyone* to do this, but the older texts do suggest that some makers were tempering wood in an oven and then japanning and baking the wood, too. Ford didn't, but I thought it was interesting that they were tempering wood to make it tolerant of a baking temperature and then using this.

I doubt much was ever thick like the mix that I have now awaiting thinning - the discussion of fine japanned goods in the older texts mentions many many coats on work that is to be rubbed out. if there is any virtue to the thick mess that I used on the last picture in my post, it's that it will fill uniform older pitting left behind by rust. It's too thick for a tool in good shape and would smudge the lettering, though, even without dots of stuff in it.

It didn't smoke and the smell wasn't bad. However, the oven is outside under cover, so any strong odors would blow away quickly.

Here's the cap fresh off the oven with its second coat. This time I was able to regulate the oven to a uniform 400f, it cooked for 2h45m.

This time the roughness of the casting is not as noticeable.

Rafael

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to add to this back and forth saga, I just confirmed that a lid full of this mixture will string.

If you're not familiar with string, it's a term used in varnishing - when the oil and resin components actually have some of their bonds broken and then cross link with each other and become a molecularly linked group instead of a bunch of separate components that just evaporate or cure as separate components, you can put a dot of cooled (don't do it hot!) varnish between your fingers, pull them apart, and strings will form, just as they would with decent hide glue. It takes additional polymer chain length vs. the original components to do that string, and the permanent linking of the oil and resins allows.

Translation, when you japan a plane body and bake it high enough with what I'm using and raffo is using (they are the same components - his is just screened and thinned further)....that japanning will be like Stanley's japanning long after we've left the earth and it will not separate.

for a varnish that has not strung, obviously there will be no string between fingers, but the thinned version of the finish will have an oily feel. Once varnish strings, it will be a "sticky" feel with no sense of anything oily.

this also means that if I run the resin later and make a real varnish with oil and resin, it won't be any more permanent on the plane than a mix like we're already using. It will, however, allow the components to be used as a drying varnish like any other varnish. Then we can explore the curiosity as to why nobody has marketed a fused version of this that could be brushed on to a plane. Because the stuff that's out there is reportedly not as good as the real thing, and Bill Tindall has already described the molecular bond that occurs - it's the same mechanism regardless of what the catalyst is - UV light, heat or drying agents.

Those who absolutely hate the idea could have a brushable real cold japanning instead of an alkyd or phenolic varnish that's colored. Too, the smell from this varnish if you'd choose to go that far - will be fresh pine as it dries inside your shop, and not exxon valdez.

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(you can see the long hair like strand - a very good result)

Third coat. Baked for about 3 hours at 400f.

I need to remove the old japanning off of the block plane body. That'll take a little longer since I don't have a sand blaster. I'll post more pictures once it is clean.

Not a bad outcome. The difficult part is removing the old japanning. Applying the varnish and baking it was the easy part.

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you need this:
Access Denied

apologies to the AU if that's not viewable.

it'll destroy japanning and more or less allow it to be washed off. And it doesn't burn your skin right away if you get some on you. If you do and don't notice it, you'll feel a warm spot a little later and can rinse it off.

the 15 minute claim isn't a lie - it'll make the finish look like someone whose face is melting off in a horror movie.

I finished the plane body. Three coats, each at least 3 hours at 400f.
I'm not super happy with the final result. The casting wasn't smooth to begin with and I may have brushed the last two coats too thick.
I had to tighten the thumbscrew really hard to keep the iron from slipping. The plane still works and it looks better than before. Perhaps one more coat.

Rafael

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looks great. I think the issue is with the casting, and as a matter of tool japanning, I don't recall it ever being thick enough to sort of fill and cover up casting undulations like that.

Received my asphaltum yesterday (which was FAST from the US). Now looking for a toaster oven.

DW, I noticed the hand tool restoration guy on youtube has a different cooking process....

Place painted item in cold oven and set it to 200F for 1hr then let cool. Bake it again at 300F for 1 hr and let cool in the oven. Then bake at 350F and finally 400F for 30 min each, cooling in between steps. If japanning is still not hard after 400F, you can bake at 425F for 1 hr.

I'm inclined to try your method (450F for 2 hours), just because I'm lazy. Surely his method is unnecessary?

I don't know what the point of the temperature steps is. here's my advice - you can brush on the asphaltum and oil and it will level on the tool while the tool is cold (as in some reasonably warm room temperature).

When it has leveled, put it in the toaster oven and turn it on, though you don't need to wait. I turned the toaster oven on at the first heat, but subsequent coats, I just pull the tool out and let it cool but leave the toaster oven running, when the tool is still a little warm (like you could touch it), brush on the next japanning coat, put it back in the oven.

one hour per coat or slightly more seems to be fine.

The last coat, bake for several hours.

gilsonite melts at 350F or something, so I don't know what the point would be to try to flash off the turpentine and partially polymerize the oil before getting the gilsonite to the temperature that it can crosslink with the oil.

...............

Important in this, though, it still should be done outside. It may not be a big deal as I cooked three spokeshaves in the garage, but I think if you burn the gilsonite or some drips off and the finish gets overcooked, you are going to have fumes and smoke that can make you feel sick.

To that, if you want to do 400 or 425 instead of 450, that's probably also enough to get the gilsonite and oil to crosslink and become a permanent varnish instead of dried or evaporated separates. Just make sure that no matter what you use, you shield the tool from direct radiant heat from the coils in the toaster oven or oven. Gilsonite starts to smoke a little above 450, so I think the room for error above isn't that great. You don't want to burn the finish and have to start over.

Some of the literature mentioned doing each coat at an hour and then baking the final setup after all coats are applied overnight. I mention several hours for the last coat because when the tool cools, you will find the japanning resilient and it won't fingerprint or dull easily. Let it cool and settle overnight or for a fairly long, time though. The heat is both the crosslinker for the parts and then the catalyst for "Varnish" drying, so you want to give everything a chance to finish before you start putting fingers on the tools.

That's it. I think the temperature ramp up may have to do with having japanning that's too thick. if you have a mix that's too thick, even if you heat it, the turpentine will flash off and it may not flow that well. Just make it thin enough that it levels at room temperature and bake it at one temp.

Not suggesting that you run the resin and cook it into a varnish separately, but it's definitely the case that if you crosslink the components and make a true varnish, then the heat level is just a catalyst for curing and it doesn't have to be as high.

Absolutely avoid smoking, though - nothing in terms of varnish components is remotely close to healthy when it's smoking. And this isn't a "I burnt the wood a little" kind of smoke, it's a seriously unhealthful thing to breathe and you won't have to guess if you're imagining acute effects. You'll be questioning whether something else may have made you feel sick, maybe, but it won't be subtle.

Doing it outside, though? No problem.

Lastly - plan the work holding before applying the japanning so that you're not touching it all either while you're putting it on or placing the item in the toaster oven. That may mean sticking a screw in a hole of some tool so it will stand up and not lay back on a japanned part. Figure that all out ahead of time. I think after the fact, when the japanning is still hot in the toaster oven, there's no race to get it out - just let the last go around cool in the oven because it can obviously be rubbed or scratched off easily when the tool is hot.