Thread: I am down the "rebate" hole......

Excellent stuff, Ck! Yep, you've got a severe case of planemakeritis, for which there is no cure, it just has to run its course. From personal experience, I can tell you that it's a chronic condition, but the symptoms may be alleviated by spending many happy hours devising & building new tools...

Making a prototype was a very smart move, I reckon, and even smarter to make it the way you did from readily available materials. I frequently make mock-ups or prototypes when I'm not certain how to proceed or not sure my idea is going to work. On a couple of occasions, the prototype was rather crude, but worked well enough it took me years to get around to making the "real" thing. At least using the tool for a while showed where improvements could be made on the 'production model'.

Can I suggest that 6mm thick brass might be overkill for the sides of your production model? I suspect 6mm brass will make the tool unnecessarily heavy as well as give you more work forming the blade bed. It looks like the sides on your inspiration planes are 1/8th" steel. Brass is a little less stiff than steel, but I think 1/8" brass would be plenty stiff enough for the job, and you probably want the look of brass (brass + nice wood is a very seductive mix!).

Forming a good blade bed & mouth is going to be the critical part whatever thickness you use. You'll notice the maker split the 'sole' on the examples above, and that's because you can't form a tight mouth for a bevel-up blade unless you use a ridiculously thin file, which would flex & form a rounded bed, something you don't want. So you just add the toe part after forming the bed. That's easy in this case & actually an advantage as you can muck about with the toe piece to get the mouth as fine as you wish before fixing it to the body.

They look so appealing I think I'll be tempted to have a go at a pair for myself, sometime. Drat! now look what you've done - this disease is more contagious than COVID - at least you can't catch that over the internet (despite what a group of nutters in the US are claiming!).....

Cheers,

Ck, that is a wonderful project.

Ian, I blame all this planemakeritis pandemic on you!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

......Ian, I blame all this planemakeritis pandemic on you! .....

Well Derek, it's true I've been sermonising & badgering you all for years, & it would be nice to think I'm becoming an "influencer", but I think Ck has followed his own path with very little input from me.

I really like to see the ways people who are new to the game approach projects. They don't come to it with a set of prejudices and fixed ideas & often show great creativity and novel solutions as they grope their way along in this half-dark world of tool-making. It would be nice to know all the techniques that Spiers & Norris et al discovered & used, but maybe we are fumbling our own ways towards re-discovering a few of their secrets.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Can I suggest that 6mm thick brass might be overkill for the sides of your production model? I suspect 6mm brass will make the tool unnecessarily heavy as well as give you more work forming the blade bed. It looks like the sides on your inspiration planes are 1/8th" steel. Brass is a little less stiff than steel, but I think 1/8" brass would be plenty stiff enough for the job, and you probably want the look of brass (brass + nice wood is a very seductive mix!).

I think you are right. I deducted from the photos (which I downloaded; there are more) that the steel plate was about 6mm, but I might be easily wrong as there is no clear scale. Anyway, if my calculations are right then my version with 6mm thick plate would be around 850g including wood and blade, etc. That is hefty. I put some of my other planes on a scale and for example the block plane I use most is about 700g and my Luban 91 shoulder plane is about 340g.
Then I also looked again at the shoulder plane I got from you and it's made with 1/8" stock. It does look proportional enough for me and I do believe that it should be good to use.
With the 1/8" stock my plane would be then around 400g (maybe more) and if I go to around 4mm it'll be 480g, but that thickness is not available as far as I see it. So the next would be 3/16" and then it'll be 550g roughly. That's too much. So I guess 1/8" it is

Originally Posted by IanW

You'll notice the maker split the 'sole' on the examples above, and that's because you can't form a tight mouth for a bevel-up blade unless you use a ridiculously thin file, which would flex & form a rounded bed, something you don't want. So you just add the toe part after forming the bed. That's easy in this case & actually an advantage as you can muck about with the toe piece to get the mouth as fine as you wish before fixing it to the body.

That was exactly what I thought when I looked at it and think on how it can be done. For the prototype I had to make that part twice and still it is too big. But as you said, I can make as many times as necessary until it's right.

Originally Posted by IanW

They look so appealing I think I'll be tempted to have a go at a pair for myself, sometime.

Then why don't you? We can do it sort off along side and see what comes out . But don't see that as a challenge or a build-off. I would not dare to that. I do not like to be embarrassed in public... More like an invitation just for fun.

Originally Posted by IanW

Well Derek, it's true I've been sermonising & badgering you all for years, & it would be nice to think I'm becoming an "influencer", but I think Ck has followed his own path with very little input from me.

Well your work is definately inspiring and shows what can be done if one puts his mind to it.

Thanks

Orright, Ck, you've definitely stirred up a bees' nest inside my head!

I have, in fact, considered making a pair on & off for a long time, but have got by with the Record 2506-like clone I bought on a whim some years ago. It's not the greatest tool & very uncomfortable to use for more than about 30 seconds.

So after my last post I had a look at HNT Gordon's design, since Terry is the master of combining nice wood & brass to make very useable planes. He comes at them from quite a different perspective, mounting the blade vertically in the stock & 'twisting' it so it's cutting at what looks like a 60 degree angle. (I couldn't find that sort of detail in his blurb, but that's what it looks like & he is rather keen on that bedding angle!) His construction seems to me to be easier to manage in some ways, more difficult in others. But what's interesting & worth noting is that Terry has made his planes into a two-trick pony by adding an angled fence so it can accurately pare the sides of a dovetail trench.

Then I had a quick look around the web to see how other backyard makers had adressed the various elements of side-rebate planes.
This bloke's video caught my eye - it's a very quick romp through the building process, but gives you the general idea. The result is a rather industrial-looking thing, but it works, so if function is more important than elegance, it's worth considering.

Anyway, either design should be do-able by someone with little or no prior experience of metal working, & would require only a minimal tool kit. You'll need a tap for threading the screw holes for the all-steel version (maybe two, a 5mm & a 6mm), but a HSS set of each size from Hare & Forbes aren't all that expensive and good tools to have in your kit. Single carbon-steel taps from Bunnies are cheaper still, but if you ever get serious about a bit of metal work, the sets of starter/intermediate & bottoming taps like H&F sells are more useful (& more durable).

I think the combined wood/metal planes like you posted above are the more elegant way to go, and I'm thinking they could look quite splendiferous with brass side/skate and some nice Gidgee or Solomon Island Ebony for the wood. I'm also pondering ways of combining the wood & brass without having those screw heads showing. I've got an old #4 blade near the end of its life that would have enough hard steel left to make a couple of blades, or maybe I'll get a piece of 2 x 15 x 200mm HSS from McJing for the blades. I rather like the stuff for small plane blades, it's M2, so they claim, and takes a good clean edge that lasts very well. A piece that size costs $16 and will easily yield two blades (of course, we have skated around the fact that we need two of these, a left & a right, to complete the set!).

Anyways, lots of things buzzing around in my head and no clear decisions yet, but I fear I'll be off to Westons in the next week or two to replenish my depleted brass stock.....

Cheers,

Ian, that's awesome. I am even more excited now.

Anyway, I also had a look at HNT Gordon. I think his design is more close to some old antique side rebate planes I have seen online. And I guess if you want that bed angle then this is what you need to go to. However, I understand that you also often use the side rebate plane on endgrain. And isn't the lower angle then easier? Which got me to the thought why there are no skewed versions out there? Maybe I will try that at some stage, but now stick to the proven designs.

In regard to the dovetail shaping I have read an article by Derek doing the same trick with a Stanley 79 and modifying the fence to the dovetail angle. Same can be done here too.

In terms of the screws showing I am thinking using slotted screws and taper the hols in the back plate only a little. Then you can peen then after assembly and simply sand off the rest. I have seen this a few times online. E.g. Young Ye does that a lot. But you have to use slotted screws. Phillips head screws do not work. You will still see the cross for the screw driver.

I am also planning to pay a visit to Weston. Maybe we will bump into each other. You are probably aware of it, but just in case. Know that they have moved to Darra now. Which is quite convenient for me now as it is much closer. Like they are telling me "You want to do this. Come we make it easier for you...."

Cheers

Originally Posted by Cklett

...... I understand that you also often use the side rebate plane on endgrain. And isn't the lower angle then easier? Which got me to the thought why there are no skewed versions out there? Maybe I will try that at some stage, but now stick to the proven designs.....

In fact, I would probably use a side rebate on end grain far more often than along it - sliding dovetail trenches & rebates for shelves etc., are almost always cut across the grain. And yes, I much prefer a low angle, bevel-up configuration for any plane that is primarily for planing end-grain.

Originally Posted by Cklett

...... In terms of the screws showing I am thinking using slotted screws and taper the hols in the back plate only a little. Then you can peen then after assembly and simply sand off the rest. I have seen this a few times online. E.g. Young Ye does that a lot. But you have to use slotted screws. Phillips head screws do not work. You will still see the cross for the screw driver...

If you want to take advantage of the existing head on the screw then yes, slotted heads are the ones to go for. I've always wondered why Colen Clenton uses Philips head screws on his tools - all those little crosses on his brass strips look unsightly to me. But good luck finding small slotted brass screws nowadays, the only place I know of that sells a good range of sizes is Paddington Hardware, which is a long trek for you. However, you can use the Philips heads, just make the hole in the brass match the unthreaded shank of the screw, drive the screw in leaving the head proud of the surface, then cut it off & peen it down into a countersink just like you would for a rivet. The brass screws you get from Bunnies are quite soft and peen very easily, and if you size the hole in the wood carefully, the threads in the wood will easily withstand light peening. You can actually get a better result doing it that way - I used to do as you describe, drive the screw into a countersink & file it off, but quite often, the screw head didn't fit as tightly in the countersink as you'd like, & left a distinct ring after the head was filed off.

Originally Posted by Cklett

...... You are probably aware of it, but just in case. Know that they have moved to Darra now. Which is quite convenient for me now as it is much closer. Like they are telling me "You want to do this. Come we make it easier for you...." ...

No I wasn't aware they'd moved! I haven't been there since just after Christmas, so I would've just trundled along to the old premises and got a nasty surprise when they weren't there! It's happened to me before - since I've been buying brass from them they've moved several times, and not just next door, they seem to like moving across town!

So thankyou for the heads-up - I'll be sure to check the address before I leave home...
Cheers,

So, I did make some progress. This is where I am at:



I should however name this plane the plane of three attempts.
After I decided that I want the blade sitting on a 12 degrees bed and changed to use 3mm brass plate, I needed 3 attempts to get the wood part right.



The first one I even tried to fix by glueing some wood back in amd recut.the bed. But then I decided to cut a new blank. However that also did not turn out as I wanted so I cut a third one.
Then the third one I cut same size as the brass plate. Stuck them together with double sided tape and marked out everything on that. It made it much easier than trying to predict where lines should be. This way I could make all lines meet up the right way. Then cut the bed and only then trimmed the wood back where I wanted it.

For now it only temporarily screwed together.

Anyway, I then also needed 3 attempts for the lever cap....



The first is to the left and the last one to the right. First I tried to carve/file it out of one piece of metal. But my piece wasn't thick enough and it is hard to make it match with the blade properly.
I then had a look at the old planes again and realised that he had bent the lever caps into shape.
So I tried that too. But I am an inpatient man and didn't heat the brass up enough. So it developed a crack when I was trying to bend it.
The third one then worked.

Still a way to go, but I am getting there....

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Finished the right hand plane. See here the finished product.





For the depth stop I used a brass angle profile, which I set in a wooden back piece. I quite like it.



I noticed when using it the humps are quite useful. To set the depth stop I set the plane in the rebate to trim and fix the depth stop to that. But then I give each hump a tap with a small mallet which brings it ever so slightly down. Now the lower tip of the blade is not digging into the corner of the rebate.

So far it cuts well.



Maybe still some tuning but I could easily trim a rebate to a line and it stayed nicely square.




All your advise above was very useful. I am looking forward to make it's left hand brother. But first I have a few other tasks for my wife to attend to in the house....

Oh yeah, and in light of the thumb screw discussion we had on my dovetail plane I found a further variation. Here I used socalled Banana Socket Binding Posts from Jaycar. I just cut off the threaded stud and drilled the hole to 5mm. Tapped a M6 thread to receive a cut off from an M6 bolt. Screwed all together and secured with Loctite. Works well and gives also good options for placing a thumb or finger behind. These electrical and Hifi items come with good knurling and also in bigger sizes. So also an option.

And I can now claim that my plane is even partly gold plated [emoji16]



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I've held this plane in my hands & can confirm that not only does it look the part, it does its job well too! Plus, it's a lot more comfortable to use than my knock-off of the Record 2506.

You are progressing at an amazing rate, Ck - from rank newbie to making very creditable specialty planes in under a year, by my reckoning. At this rate you'll be leading the field in another 12 months....

And thanks heaps for the banana socket tip - I'll add that to the second edition of the metal planemakers' manual as a useful source of knurled thumbscrews. Excellent lateral thinking!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

And thanks heaps for the banana socket tip - I'll add that to the second edition of the metal planemakers' manual as a useful source of knurled thumbscrews. Excellent lateral thinking!

Cheers,

The Edward de Bono of Brissy?



Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by IanW

You are progressing at an amazing rate, Ck - from rank newbie to making very creditable specialty planes in under a year, by my reckoning. At this rate you'll be leading the field in another 12 months....

Thanks Ian, it's only because of this forum and how freely and constructive people share their knowledge and are happy to help out. I guess that helps making the learning curve steeper for guys like me ;-)

What I forgot to mention is that the plane is 350g heavy without depth stop and 580g with it. It's a.nice weight and lucky I did.not go for the 6mm brass. That would have been really heavy then.

I learned again a lot. It's good practise to work with brass and also gave good feel on how to shape a bed for the blade. Definately feel the urge to take that further. When I make the other one of the pair I can use that to further refine my skill before I move on to another plane to make.

It is so much fun and feels great to use a tool you have made yourself from scratch.

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Originally Posted by Cklett

......It is so much fun and feels great to use a tool you have made yourself from scratch....

Yep, and the feeling gets even better as the tools get better...

One thing I meant to ask - how did you set out your blade bed? The best method I can think up is to draw a full-size section of the plane and use a 15 degree template to mark where it exits the body. Then I can measure that distance on the plane itself, mark it, and cut the bed to meet the mark and the edge of the brass facing. That should be repeatable so the pair will match closely (I hope).

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

The Edward de Bono of Brissy?.....

I think I've more often been called Edward de bone-head by those who know me well....