Thread: why do block planes have the bevel up?

Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb

Just wondering why do block planes' blades have the bevel facing up?
I know they are designed for endgrain work but I thought that the bevel facing this way would make it worse.
Are there other planes with this setup?

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/r...cles_461.shtml

Over to you Derek

Cheers
Michael

Because they are a low angle plane (12 or 20 deg bed angle) and you get best support of the blade in configuration with a bevel up.

Further the low angle bevel up planes have the versatility of having various blade bevels to allow increased cutting angles i.e 12 deg bed angle plus 38 deg blade bevel gives a 50 deg (york pitch) etc giving more versatility to the plane. 12 deg bed + 48 deg blade bevel gives 60 deg pitch which is good for difficult grain timbers.

Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb

Are there other planes with this setup?

Yep Veritas have a wonderful range of bevel up planes with adjustable mouths - jacks, jointers and smoothers - fantastic and raved about by many.

Is it a prerequisite of a bevel up plane to have an adjustable mouth? Why is this helpful?
Sorry if these questions are obvious (to those in the know) or are entering the realm of design philosophy but I feel that if I understand these matters it may help me fine tune my planes correctly.

Wouldn't be surprised also it came about cause it lends to the thing being gripped one handed....uno, hand can lie over it with low bed...

Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb

Is it a prerequisite of a bevel up plane to have an adjustable mouth? Why is this helpful?
Sorry if these questions are obvious (to those in the know) or are entering the realm of design philosophy but I feel that if I understand these matters it may help me fine tune my planes correctly.

It's not essential but it is very useful -
- bevel ups are usually low angle.
- low angle is prone to tearing out the wood
- tearout is reduced by taking finer cuts and narrowing the mouth so the wood is cut before it splits or tears.

Picture should help.

Cheers

Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb

Just wondering why do block planes' blades have the bevel facing up?
I know they are designed for endgrain work but I thought that the bevel facing this way would make it worse.
Are there other planes with this setup?

Block planes are not necessarily bevel up. Nor do they even have to be low angle, or even have an adjustable mouth. Stanley (amongst others) has 37 degree (low angle) and 45 degree (standard angle) versions, while HNT Gordon has a 55 degree bevel down version.

Only metal block planes are bevel up. Woodies are bevel down. A low bed is considered too fragile to build in wood.

With the metal bevel up version, my guess is that block planes are bevel up to be compact. Their bed is low and the cutting angle is achieved via the final bevel.

Patrick Leach had this to say: Stanley, in their marketing propaganda, claimed that "A Block Plane was first made to meet the demand for a Plane which could be easily held in one hand while planing across the grain, particularly the ends of boards, etc. This latter work many Carpenters call 'Blocking in', hence the name 'Block' Plane." This, if it is to be believed, dispells the myth that block planes are so named because they were first used on butcher's blocks.

Interestingly, planes such as the Stanley #62 and #164, or their modern day derivatives - the LV LA Jack, LN #164, LV LA Smoother, and LN #164 - are all considered block planes. So the meaning of block plane has now come to refer to "bevel up" rather than "one handed".

Hope that helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks guys, all very useful information.
One last question while I'm on the subject of planes....

The old wooden (bodied) planes. They are still fairly common and cheap.

Besides salvaging the irons are they worth using as a work tool or are metal bodied planes so far superior that they have made these woodies redundant?

There fine....some say there better......doesn't really matter what you use.....you can make most of them work to a passable standard.

Wood on woods nice.....steels nice cause of the weight.....steels tougher (handles wood harder than the plane body better)......but steel planes have thin blades, which don't perform as well (but still there ok)....lot of factors really..and people have different preferences...feel you've really got to play with them a fair bit to develop a good understanding of whats good/bad. There can be only so much gained from others advice. uno.

I use a mix of Stanley-type metal planes, HNT Gordon, Mujingfang, and Veritas and other woodies. Jake is right about wood-on-wood - I love the feel of wooden planes as they pass over the work. Sure, in 'weight for centimetres' terms, you'll get more heft out of metal or an infill.

But I love my woodies for ease of use, and for the 'tactile' feel they give to your work. A little bit of candle wax (or similar) on the sole and you're good to go. The blades are also thick and awesome, and the fact they bed down all the way to the mouth means very little or nil chatter.

Pick up a woodie for yourself on eBay - goodness, they're so cheap there's nothing to lose. Then you might want to follow Bob Smalser's advice on preparing a wooden plane (esp dealing with an old worn-out sole http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/r...cles_610.shtml) and you'll be good to go. You can also still get Mujingfang planes cheaply on eBay or through many woodworking stores (often just sold as 'Chinese pattern planes' or similar). No prep really necessary except final blade honing - these planes represent the ultimate in value-for-money woodworking.

Give 'em a go. It's cheap (except if you go buying HNT, Knight or Clark and Williams), and it's the best way to know if you like it or not.

Just as an aside, I believe Mike Wenzloff who frequently posts on this site (MikeW) is now selling off most of his metal planes to replace them with woodies for his saw-making and cabinetmaking business.

Cheers,
GW

Sure.... If you want to believe all those technical reasons.... I just figured that was the way they wanted them to be installed and besides.... They won't fit right the other way.

Happy Australia Day 2007

Thanks again guys,
Jake I do own a woody that I have used a bit. I find it just OK.

The difference between wood on wood or steel on wood .......well I'm just not enough of a sensitive new age woodworker (SNAW) to get it .

Admitedly up until now most of my woodwork is constructing decks, pergolahs and gazebo type stuff. This means the only time I use a plane is besides the odd dressing of a post is arrising edges. This is very unfriendly on woodies as it tends to put a groove down the centre of the sole.

GW Thanks for the link. That article leads me to believe one disadvantage of the old woodies is that as the sole wears over time the mouth will become wider thus requiring the type of rehabbing that Mr Smalser describes.
mmmmmm.......might stick to steel at present but I will never say never.

BTW after sharpening and tuning my old Stanley No4 I got my first wafer thin shaving today. Stopped for lunch, went back down to the shed and it was still floating in the air!

Turned out that it was stuck on a spiders web.

Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb

I'm just not enough of a sensitive new age woodworker (SNAW) to get it .

SNAW, I like that....sounds like a wood whisperer, eh Ruffly!!?

Cheers,

Maybe it should be SNAP - Sensitive New Age Planer