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5th February 2006, 01:46 PM #1
Another bloody sharpening discussion!
This is essentially a copy of a post I made a few minutes ago to a question about choosing a honing guide. I said there that I was not going to start a thread, but my response became longer and longer (I am far too verbose!) and I think that the argument contains important issues for consideration when choosing a honing guide as well as going freehand.
This could just as easily be titled something like " the dos and don'ts of sharpening guides". Everyone - but Everyone! - has an opinion about sharpening guides. It is a bit like discussing religeon or politics. So just a few personal points, most of which I have made many times before. I do invite all to answer to these, and also to state the pros and cons of the sharpening guide they use.
1. There is a definite place for honing guides, as well as a definite place for freehanding blades. I do both.
2. We basically have three situations to consider: Blades used in bevel up configuration, blades used in bevel down configuration, and microbevel vs flat bevel honing.
3. The advantage of freehand honing is that it feels quick and, for the impatient individual (like myself), it is easier to grab a blade and whip it onto a waterstone (or other preferred sharpening media). The disadvantage of freehand honing is that it actually takes longer overall - over time the bevel is rounded and then one really needs to flatten it with a jig. The process of rounding the blade tends to disguise the fact that the bevel angle has gradually changed (increased).
Now this is generally OK if used on bevel down blades, such as in the typical Stanley plane, or used on non-paring bench chisel. In such situations the bevel angle is not critical. The bevel down plane imparts the cutting angle from the back of the blade, which is the leading angle. The angle of the bevel only affects the durability of the bevel (also its penetration - not the issue here), and the plane will work whatever the bevel angle it has (up to a point - the higher the bevel angle, the less clearance, and eventually the blade will stop working).
Bottom line: if you are working bevel down, and are using thin blades (see later), then freehand honing is fine. I do this all the time.
4. The advantage of a guide is twofold - it provides accuracy, and this leads to ease of reproducing a previous bevel angle, and this leads to faster honing (as one is not creating a new bevel each time).
5. For bevel up planes, and for specialist chisels (e.g. paring- or mortice chisels), the angle of the bevel is Critical. The bevel angle actually defines how the tool will work. For example, a bevel up plane with a 37 degree cutting angle (i.e a 25 degee bevel on a 12 degree bed) will cutt markedly differently than one cutting at 62 degrees. Try this on difficult grain and you will find out very quickly! Similarly, the lower the bevel angle, the greater the ease of penetration into the wood. Therefore paring chisels, which are pushed by hand, have a low angle, typically of 20 degrees. At the other end of the spectrum one has mortice chisels, which are Hammered and need a durable edge. These will need a bevel angle of 30-35 degrees.
The higher the bevel angle on chisels, the less one needs to be obsessional about accuracy of bevel angle (if you are in the ball park that is usually enough). And vice versa - as the bevel angle intentionally reduces, so it becomes more important to hone with care.
6. A further introduction is the use of microbevels to speed up sharpening. Again, on a bevel down plane this is less critical, but on a bevel up blade this is all-important.
The one time I use a microbevel on a bevel down blade is when the blade is thick (and the steel is hard). Such as the HNT Gordon blades, which are 14" thick. These are super-easy for freehand, but it is so much quicker to add a micro-bevel to the primary bevel than hone the entire bevel face freehand or with a guide.
So we come to choice of honing guide. Which to buy - the Carba-tec cheapie or the LV superduper (LV Honing Guide Mk II)?
I have not used all the guides available, but have used quite a number. I do have a lot of insiders information about the LV (I have worked on the pre-production prototypes as well as researching and reviewing the production model), and this does bias me somewhat - hopefully to your advantage.
There is a world of difference between the LV Mk II and other Look-a-likes. For a start, the LV is vastly better made (and its price reflects this), not just in construction, but also in being a complete package. As it stands, the basic Mk II will do just about everything one needs - wide and narrow blades, quick to set up, accurate, easy to hold, very wide range of preset bevel angles. Not on the market yet, but definitely coming, are clamp-on guides for skew blades and for radiused blades. At this point you can access an article I wrote:
Advanced Angles on the Lee Valley Honing Guide Mk II
I do not wish to imply that the LV Mk II is perfect. It is not. It is the best compromise available at this time. For example, it is optimised for the novice blade sharpener and, in this guise, is about foolproof. For the more advanced sharpener it a little limiting (but only just, and this is overcome as well with either the correct accessory or technique). For example, the guide has a very wide wheel and, for some, this is too stable since it prevents one honing a radiused blade. It will create a super straight blade. Isn't that what we seek? Well, not for smoothers, where we want to feather the edges of the shavings to avoid tracklines.
And what of the Carba-tec, etc? There is nothing wrong with these guides. They all work (again within the range of their limitations), and with a few of your own add-on accessories (such as a bevel angle setter), then they can be made to do a fine job (still within the range of their limitations). It all depends what you want, or are prepared to accept, or to outlay in $$, for the honing guide of your dreams.
Open for discussion...
Regards from Perth
Derek
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5th February 2006 01:46 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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5th February 2006, 01:54 PM #2
.......................oH nO!!!! :eek::eek::eek:
Just Do The Best You Can With What You HAve At The Time
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5th February 2006, 01:55 PM #3
Have to agree with the thread starter, not Another bloody sharpening discussion! they become so tedious.
Blowin in the Wind
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5th February 2006, 06:40 PM #4
So you never get sick of talking about sharpening then?
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5th February 2006, 06:47 PM #5Originally Posted by craigbBlowin in the Wind
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5th February 2006, 07:14 PM #6Quote:
Originally Posted by craigb
So you never get sick of talking about sharpening then?
Redwood replied:
Id rather spend half a day talking to alexander downer
I agree! No, the only reason I posted this stuff was that I was so heartily sick and tired of posting this stuff repeatedly under one thread or another, and hoping just to have something to point others to when they raise the same old same old. The problem is that I hear others making choices that are I believe going to either cost them money in the long run or frustrated them in the moderate term simply because they make a short-term decision - that is OK as long as the compromises are recognised and accepted. When someone says "I've used XYZ and it has served me well, so anything is crapp", then we are not talking about objectivity. My intension was just to make prospective buyers of honing guides understand what the issues are. If you find this thread boring, then don't read or contribute to it.
Regards from Perth
Derek
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5th February 2006, 07:28 PM #7
Be nice to Derek boys, or I will post a copy of a twenty-eight page thread on
sharpening from another forum. Evrything you never wanted to know about motorised waterstones and shaptons and granite surface plates. :eek:
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5th February 2006, 07:31 PM #8
Fair call derek i read the post and as usual found it very interesting but the thought of hearing what possesed alexander to slip on the fishnets interests me more
Blowin in the Wind
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5th February 2006, 07:35 PM #9
Good on ya Derek.
I thought this Forum was about woodwork and related stuff. Seems to me the topic is appropriate and helpful to us less experienced. I have learned a lot from posts like yours and feel my woodwork has improved as a result.
Reading isn't compulsory and I suspect there are plenty of folk who don't find sharpening boring as it is an essential part of woodworking.Cheers from NZ
Richard
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5th February 2006, 07:36 PM #10
maybe a sticky for this, the same stuff comes up too often.
Although I was guilty of starting a thread on it
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5th February 2006, 07:40 PM #11Originally Posted by redwood
I think it was a private picture stolen from his private collection.:eek:
we was just starting his dressing routine before going out to his normal sat night thingo at the mars bar:eek: :eek: :eek:
cross dressing polly:confused: ????
PS sorry to hijack so early. Redwood can start another thread to deal with just this issue.Last edited by Ian007; 5th February 2006 at 07:42 PM. Reason: Add PS
Some People are like slinky's,
They serve no purpose at all,
but they put a smile on your face when you throw them down the stairs.
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5th February 2006, 07:59 PM #12Originally Posted by derekcohen
Do a Search !!
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5th February 2006, 08:19 PM #13
G'day,
Thumbs up to Derek for the post. I'm a darksider in the making and regard what Derek has to say or show with great worth and value.
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5th February 2006, 09:40 PM #14
Thank's Derek for posting the sharpening article .
regards ,Belaforge
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