Thread: Nicholson Saw File Shortcomings are Over

I should probably warn that this whole thing with nicholson files was bad for a few years at first, and then OK, and now seems to remain fine (better than five years ago? I don't know).

If there are older files still stuck in the distribution chain, they may not be very good.

At the same time, nicholson files were about as much as bahco, but their usefulness here is they weren't a specialty retailer thing in some sizes. They were just retailed at home depot in 6 slim taper and xx slim for $4 and $5 each, respectively - made in USA. They went to mex production and the ended up out of most retailers anyway. Not sure if home depot cares any of them at all, but you get what I mean - the retailers pushed the suppliers to drop prices, the suppliers did and tried to continue to make decent stuff, and then what's on the shelf is captive store brand subpar stuff.

I can't say anything is universal, though, as I bought a big three file set from harbor freight and figured I'd waste them filing metal - especially the shoulders on chisels where the tang meets the main part of a chisel. These cheap double cut coarse files were definitely not meant for steel, but they have held up OK.

More importantly, though, given that you now know that nicholson files are drop shipped in boxes here for $2 each, they shouldn't be that expensive there, either. If they're $7-$10 each, I wouldn't chance it yet.

D.W.

My very subjective impression for some time was that modern Nicholsons were worthless. A new file I bought from the local hardware store would not make an impression on saw steel straight out of the packet and that disastrous experience has prejudiced my perspective for some time. NOS Nicholsons were wonderful. Having said that I don't really know how old they are/were, but not made in Mexico for sure.

My further impression is that file quality is less reliable in the smaller sections (4" - 6" particularly in the slimmer tapers where the corners become all important): Perhaps that is down to the degree of precision in the tooling that is used in the manufacture as well as the hardening and tempering processes.

Your file being 8" regular taper is up at the largest end of the spectrum and maybe more forgiving. At $2 a pop I guess you can afford to give them a try. Certainly cutting in large teeth from a plain plate is exacting for any file and your file has stood up well to the task. It would be very interesting to see how the smaller, slimmer files behave.

Regards
Paul

After Fence Furniture did that big Exposé some years ago I hunted on Ebay for NOS Wiltshire Saw Files. I had used them when I first started work to tickle up my D8 Disstons. They were good but as time went on you would be lucky to get just one filing out of one. They were too soft. Then as time went on it was very hard to get a descent file of any brand.

Any way about a month ago I decided that my saw collection needed a good sharpen. I had actually forgot about 2 boxes of Wiltshires. One box was extra slim and the other was larger. I got quite a shock to sharpen 3 saws with the one file!! I don't have any idea of how old both boxes of files are. I do know one thing I won't be sharing them with anyone.....they're mine....all mine (Hidious nutty professor laugh.)

What was the outcome of Brett Fence Furniture's work he put into finding who was selling descent Files
I have 2 dovetails and one tennon saw to make using the material bought as a group buy. For them I will be using some very nice 100mm long slim taper from Jewelers Supplies I found these really good on other filing jobs but haven't as yet tried them on a saw

Originally Posted by chambezio

After Fence Furniture did that big Exposé some years ago I hunted on Ebay for NOS Wiltshire Saw Files. I had used them when I first started work to tickle up my D8 Disstons. They were good but as time went on you would be lucky to get just one filing out of one. They were too soft. Then as time went on it was very hard to get a descent file of any brand.

Any way about a month ago I decided that my saw collection needed a good sharpen. I had actually forgot about 2 boxes of Wiltshires. One box was extra slim and the other was larger. I got quite a shock to sharpen 3 saws with the one file!! I don't have any idea of how old both boxes of files are. I do know one thing I won't be sharing them with anyone.....they're mine....all mine (Hidious nutty professor laugh.)

What was the outcome of Brett Fence Furniture's work he put into finding who was selling descent Files
I have 2 dovetails and one tennon saw to make using the material bought as a group buy. For them I will be using some very nice 100mm long slim taper from Jewelers Supplies I found these really good on other filing jobs but haven't as yet tried them on a saw

Rod

I am fortunate enough to have some old Wiltshire files (I actually bought them as NOS from the US so they have come home!) and they are probably a contender for title of "best files ever." Their only shortcomings are that they are no longer made and I don't have enough of them.

Regards
Paul

This is just my perception of what was going on - it was an effort to get liogier to make files and convince people to buy them, ultimately at what would've been a higher price, and after much badgering, I did get an admission that there would be some remuneration if that occurred.

I'm guessing at the outcome here - liogier wasn't able to make files at a cost that would've moved the needle for anyone, or they decided at the cost that they'd have been able to sell files, it wasn't worth their time.

I didn't manage to cut an entire resaw blade tonight, but I did have the chance to file enough to exhaust one of the 8" regular taper nicholson files. The amount that it will cut in terms of new tooth volume and the life of the edges is just about identical to the 8" regular taper bahco.

I guess overall I like them both about the same, but the corners are a little sharper on the nicholson which means they'll work with a wider range of teeth.

The limitation for using such a large file on more rip saws (since the corner isn't that fat) is probably more related to the size of the file teeth - the finish is a little less good, but I can't tell any speed difference with a sharpened saw.


I'll yield to the prior comment about perhaps this being an even contest with bigger files. I have so many smaller files that I will never use them all before we get a few humid days and they rust (and this being in a dry part of my house, not the garage. I wouldn't dream of storing saw files in the garage).

Originally Posted by D.W.

This is just my perception of what was going on - it was an effort to get liogier to make files and convince people to buy them, ultimately at what would've been a higher price, and after much badgering, I did get an admission that there would be some remuneration if that occurred.

I'm guessing at the outcome here - liogier wasn't able to make files at a cost that would've moved the needle for anyone, or they decided at the cost that they'd have been able to sell files, it wasn't worth their time.

When FenceFurniture commenced his Group Buy about ten years ago I bought some round chainsaw files at the same time. They were no better and no worse than any other chainsaw file. What I did take from visiting their site at the time was they were not really that fussed about file: It was not their core business, which as we all know is hand stitched rasps: very good rasps too. Today files are not listed on their website. It make me wonder whether they even made them at all.

Tome Fetiera, the well-established Portuguese company (TOME FETEIRA) make a huge range and for other people to brand themselves, including Bahco I believe. Did they make files for Liogier too? I don't know.

Regards
Paul

I think tome feteira and bahco are made in different places. Tf aren't retailed here, but someone was selling them by the dozen years ago on Ebay along with old stock k&f and getting a bunch for both.

The metallurgy of files is pretty simple. If they're made well, it'd be hard for one brand to better another by much. The problem is when they're mediocre, they can be differentiated easily cutting spring temper. The liogier idea didn't have much upside because file steel alloys can't vary that much. And the smaller Portugal files were only about $5 each here.

Bahcos parent is in the USA, so at least those have always been easy to get drop shipped reasonable from Williams tool.

Follow up comment on the difference between a good/mediocre file and a great one.

Saw files end up with a lot of pressure on a very small contact point. Two things can improve that, other than light pressure - adding more teeth to the file or cutting bigger teeth on a saw. Kind of hard to adjust the latter and the first slows a file down and makes it cut slower when it starts to dull.

All of the files I've ever smashed into a knife and re-heat treated are practically the same steel. They're some kind of surplus carbon relatively plain steel - I'm guessing around 1.2% carbon, even on the cheap indian files. Why? When you heat treat them and thermally cycle them, they don't ever get to really fine grain like you'll see in 1095 or 1084 snapped samples. The thing that makes the grain look coarse isn't coarse grain - it's a significant number of iron carbides.

I have snapped samples of 26c3 and been disappointed because it doesn't look as fine as O1 only to find that it takes a finer edge and has more toughness than O1 even at a higher hardness. 26c3 is 1.25% carbon steel with a small amount of hardenability additives, but nothing complicated. It sparks and feels and hardens the same as a good file.

Sometimes you'll read that files are made of inferior steel now - I doubt it. But it could be true that they're not hardened to the same level because it's easier to stay away from chippy teeth by going a little soft.

The other side of the equation is the pressure on the teeth means that they need to have only a little toughness (you definitely don't want them to roll and stay in place - file stops working immediately in that case), but they need to have as much strength as possible. And they need to be fine grained so that the fine tip stays as long as possible.

That eliminates the ability to make a good file out of complex steels with big non-iron carbides or to try to use really tough steels with fine grain but lower carbon (lack of hardness, lack of strength).

The difference between a great file and a mediocre one, assuming evenly cut teeth, is a couple of points of hardness. The closer you get to the top of the hardness range for a steel, the bigger risk you take of tipping over the top and having very high strength teeth that are brittle, though.

And some of the better old files that I've gotten will have batches where the files actually aren't very good because they're undertempered. I'm whizzing through some large nicholson bastid files NOS, and they're harder than one ones, but they don't last any longer because in heavy use the teeth are just a hair away from being tempered enough. Whereas a more mediocre file just wears by losing its initial edge through wear and pressure, the NOS nicholson flat files in this case develop tiny chips at the edges of the teeth and lose their very apex and then settle in. Kind of a bummer, but I bought them thinking I'd just use them and anneal/cut/grind them to make other things

One of the problems with the early mex files is they had interruptions in teeth - a different problem, because the first high tooth after an interruption will be broken off and as you go down the line of teeth, each is quickly introduced to working by itself and they all shear off in relatively little time unless you're not filing something that hard.

Bahcos definitely aren't as hard as some of the older files that I've had, either, but they've always worn "honest" - predictably and never early edge chipping from being overhard.

Even the mex nicholsons (the early ones) are fine for me for resharpening. I joint teeth nearly never after the initial line is established and I doubt historically many people did stuff like that, either. With some skill, the teeth will stay even height for a very long time without even a very light jointing. It's cutting teeth and rehabbing old saws where a great file differentiates itself from a good one.

Point of this being, most people are trying to learn to sharpen saws, and they're taking advice on overspending on specific files out of what's fanaticism when the only thing being done is sharpening.

There are third world files that won't be suitable for sharpening, though. As big of a failure as some of those have been (even simonds intl files that I've received from sellers who said they were selling NOS simonds files - they arrive and they're not, they're just simonds intl), none have proven to be bad steel. They're just exceptionally poorly cut.

finished teeth with plate 3. I figured since I accidentally grabbed an old 8" USA nos heavy taper file (slightly bigger than regular taper, but edge twice as fat and far more durable), I would compare a few files and make honest revisions to my comments above:

1) I tried grobet USA and simonds intl files to start teeth because that blows out files. A good file will do a bunch of teeth, but the edge still gets blown out fast. These files were totally unusable, with teeth run off of them quickly. Strangely enough, the best file I've ever used for this of any brand was an over hard very sharp cornered chinese file. I still have it. I have no clue what it is - it's three sided but not tapered and I have a job for it with guitars, so it's never out for the job. It would not cut fast if I did and its qualities may be due to its odd teeth -maybe they're underheight and strong

But conclusion of these first two are cases where I got boxes of files from unscrupulous sellers who were vague and implied that they were not foreign files. Both grobetUSA and simonds intl of the time frame that mine came from are unusuable. Even the sides are crap. That said, I could still resharpen a saw with grobet usa, but it would be miserable. The teeth are poorly formed on the simonds intl file, so it would only sharpen a soft saw. Terrible.

2) Nicholson mex - a decent file. I wouldn't pay bahco price for it now that I've had a little more hand time. It lasts about like the bahco for cutting teeth but I'm using big files and I think they're too big for .032 plate -so it's hard on them. Still a good file, but see comments below about american nicholson. I could easily have only these files both to retooth saws and file even though they're not quite as accurately toothed as the two below. Why? They're not as nice to use, but they're $2 each. I think they will last or nearly last with bahco and in hard tooth cutting work, the feel difference is not really durability outcome vs. USA nicholson. I would guess USA nicholson will do with 3 files in tooth cutting what 5 mex files do, but the corners seem to hold up better so it feels a lot better.

Mex nicholsons are $2 each in packs of 12 here and no clue on the USA files. I got a box of 12 heavy taper USA nicholsons long ago for $25 I think purely out of the fact that most people don't have a 2TPI-ish saw to use them. I do.

3) bahco - for sharpening, I'll call it even with the USA nicholson. I sharpen often and little at a time when I do sharpen. If you're working by hand resawing or ripping, a resharpen of the teeth is 3-5 minutes max, including getting the boards out. Setting is relatively seldom, and you can feel it coming. What's often? Every project where I use 50 board feet or so of lumber, I will sharpen a rip saw. Any decent file will do this ten times. Taking away the tooth cutting and the perfectly even teeth on 6 regular or 7 slim taper size bahco (I used one to finish the teeth after re-leveling here) are like silk. They really are like a silky smooth feel. That means that there are no teeth leaving early and nothing will break your rhythm filing. Rhythm is important for routine sharpening because it means doing the same thing in each tooth and no uneven tooth lines or uneven rake (despite not using a guide).

4) USA older nicholson 8" heavy taper file. Enormous fat files with a strong edge. Lasted longer and smoother than the mex files - but not exactly the same files. Sides lasted a little longer, too. The teeth aren't any more accurate than the bahcos and maybe not as accurate but the edge lasts longer. Just an example of good execution in heat treatment.



That's the files in order. I think that's a little harder to go by for you guys because if someone is dumping nicholson files for $24 (unlimited quantity) for a dozen, I'm less inclined to seek out the silky resharpening feel of the bahcos and they do have narrower edges (so I have to write on my saw plates now what I used to sharpen to avoid wasting time with that).

Conclusion is the same in value, I guess, but I do after putting another hour of hand time on the files or a little more notice enough quality difference to make mention of it. It's just not a $2 to $8 gap like the price is.

Update, I bought three dozen more files from the same seller. 8 reg taper, 7 slim and 4 x slim.

For the price, the heavier files are still fine.

The 4 x slim files, however, are a disappointment compared to 5 xx slim files that I've gotten in the past that are carded but also mex made. For the price, can I get my money's worth using them to sharpen? Yes.

But the accuracy in making becomes a problem in the smaller files with edges that aren't consistent from file to file and some warping.

Fortunately, small saws need relatively infrequent filing compared to large rip saws.

Hi David

I don't have enough saw sharpening experience to contribute much.

I thought I would ask, though, what your view is on the Paul Sellers tip on using a junior hacksaw to extend the life of your files (ie, to cut into the gullet and save the wear on the corners)?

To be frank I did this once and it added so much time to the process (it's not the sawing time, but on smaller teeth, carefully locating the blade into successive teeth). By the end I was thinking I'd happily pay a few bucks per sharpen to avoid it. It more seemed to be useful if you didn't have good and ready access to saw files (probably an Australian problem in particular where small files will generally be online and slow).

DW, would you post the eBay link you've been buying from?

Originally Posted by woodPixel

DW, would you post the eBay link you've been buying from?

BOX OF 12 NICHOLSON 4" EXTRA SLIM TAPER FILES 14547M DOZEN CRESCENT APEX TOOL | eBay

4x slims

BOX OF 12 NICHOLSON 8" REGULAR TAPER FILES 13875M DOZEN CRESCENT APEX TOOL LOT 37103162595 | eBay

8 reg. taper

7 slim

NICHOLSON 7" SLIM TAPER FILES 14255M BOX OF 12 CRESCENT APEX TOOL CO LOT DOZEN | eBay

The 7s are meh, the 8 are decent maybe just because size makes up for any inaccuracy. The 4x I won't order again- but I'll get $19 out of them one way or another, even if it's just to use them to start teeth later on something else to save the corners of a better file.

If shipping is a lot, I think this becomes a neutral proposition vs. a bahco that costs twice as much here - at least for some things.