Thread: Broken 3.6TPI handsaw recycle

Nick

A casual glance at your saw suggests that it could be a Keystone model, but I have not checked this. Keystone was a secondary line made by Disston.

It is a rip saw for cutting along the grain and being quite large to begin with at 28" or thereabouts even cutting off the saw at the crack will probably leave you with about 20" plus. This could be useful. The saw still has plenty of depth to it.

If you clean up the heel of the saw on the side shown in the first pic you may find a number stamped. This will be the ppi (points per inch) of the saw. From your measurements I would expect to see either "4" or "4 1/2". The most common ppi I see for a rip saw is probably "5".

The easiest way, and best way, to cut down the blade is to use an angle grinder with a thin cutting disc. It will go through the steel like butter and impart very little heat. Start at the tooth edge (ensures any heat that does build up will tend to be at the back of the saw where it does not matter anyway). You can always damp the blade down with a wet cloth as you go if you think too much heat is occurring. I would use a small piece of timber or preferably metal clamped to the blade as a guide. Metal has the added benefit of acting as a heat sink.

Your offcut can certainly be used as a scraper. Scrapers were made from the same steel as saw plates. Cut it to shape the same way as above.

Regards
Paul

Edit: It could also be a secondary line from the time HK Porter owned Disston, which was after 1955. The reason for mentioning this is the more angular style of the handle. This is a Keystone catalogue from 1935.

Keystone 1935 catalogue (Medium).jpg

The Air Master is similar, but not identical.

Good project Nick. Paul, I was watching a Youtube clip recently and the bloke on it claimed that "warranted superior" meant different things in the US and in Great Britain. A WS saw from the US was likely to be a 2nd line saw but a WS saw from GB was generally top of the line. As our resident saw expert, would you agree?

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

Good project Nick. Paul, I was watching a Youtube clip recently and the bloke on it claimed that "warranted superior" meant different things in the US and in Great Britain. A WS saw from the US was likely to be a 2nd line saw but a WS saw from GB was generally top of the line. As our resident saw expert, would you agree?

MA

While I am flattered by the term expert, and I like to think I have developed a store of knowledge from my research, I am only too aware how tenuous a title "expert" is. I liken it to being "confident," which is the state you may be in before you see the true reality. Perhaps I would be more comfortable in being described as the resident saw "researcher." That actually just means I know where to go to find out the information that is in fact available to everybody else.

The Warranted Superior designation is both something of a mystery to me and an anomaly. I really don't know how it came about. The leading manufacturers on both sides of the ocean (Northern hemisphere) had their own medallions for their first line of saws and it was something they wished to put out there. It was flaunted and very much their shop front. For that reason I don't think the Warranted Superior saws were normally top of the line. I am actually only familiar with the British saws in passing so I can't absolutely comment.

Certainly in the US the WS seemed to be reserved for the secondary lines. Disston had their Keystone range and a number of other lesser saws, (Bishop, Brown, Taylor and Jackson etc) and all these had WS medallions. Disston WS medallions usually had a keystone as a centrepiece (so I am now thinking that Nick's saw may not be Disston made). Atkins had their Sheffield range and Simonds had their "third level" saws (my terminology) which reflected indigenous Indian names. Both these companies used WS with an eagle as the centrepiece, but so did other manufacturers. British WS medallion tended to have something associated with the monarchy such as a crown.

One area where the WS medallion was top of the line was with saws produced for the major hardware stores by the dedicated saw manufacturers. They would be branded with the hardware store's name and might well have been exactly the same as the saw manufacturer's models but they got a WS medallion. Stiletto is an example of this. Some however were big enough that they got their own medallion and there Diamond Edge (Shapleigh Hardware) is an example.In fact they had two as Keen Kutter was theirs too! However, they did not manufacture saws.

Something I should have suggested that Nick try is to clean up the etch area of the saw plate to see if there are any clues there. Use W & D paper wet wrapped around a small block of hardwood. Check regularly to see if anything starts to show up and go carefully. Wet is better but dry sometimes works too.

Regards
Paul

I have wondered for years where all the Warranted Moderately Good saws are...

Originally Posted by Bill Houghton

I have wondered for years where all the Warranted Moderately Good saws are...

And there Bill, is the anomaly, to which I alluded. If these saws are superior, what does that make their own name brand saws? Indeed can all lesser saws (price wise) be superior. Surely only a single saw from each manufacturer actually be superior. Having said that, we have to remember that it was a time of hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims (Oooh, have we just returned to that? Please disregard that comment as there is already at least one other thread on these Forums discussing such matters ). In the literature of the day there was frequent reference to "fully warranted" and not just in the saw business. It is a term of another era, although today we still have "warranty" associated with many products. Increasingly though it is now "limited" warranty.

I should add that many of the Warranted Superior saws are very good products. If the manufacturer has taken the time to taper grind the saw it is likely a better quality and this is one aspect to watch out for.

Regards
Paul

Thanks Paul. You are the most knowledgeable guy I know regarding handsaws so in my sphere you are the expert......but I get where you are coming from. The same guy in his video went to some lengths to encourage people to buy the WS saws because they didn't attract the kinds of prices that known brands do and were often just as good. From memory the whole video was shot in his "pickup" as he was driving along.

Given your location and summer coming on, I guess that a snow knife is the last tool you need.

Old saw blades here are used for crooked knife blades for the Pacific Northwest First Nations wood carving style.
Bigger pieces can be cut for domestic use as Ulu or Umialik. Maybe some cabinet scrapers?

Originally Posted by Robson Valley

Given your location and summer coming on, I guess that a snow knife is the last tool you need.

Old saw blades here are used for crooked knife blades for the Pacific Northwest First Nations wood carving style.
Bigger pieces can be cut for domestic use as Ulu or Umialik. Maybe some cabinet scrapers?

Cabinet maker scraper suit me well

Once cut down, you'll have a pretty typical panel saw length. The handle will be a little larger & will have one extra bolt compared with a 'genuine' panel saw. Judging by the number of "panel saws" one comes across with an "extra" bolt, quite a few hand saws have met a fate similar to yours.

Just a suggestion, but I'd increase the tpi for a shorter saw, I think you'd find 7 or 8 tpi far more useful in panel saw size. Panel saws usually have lighter gauge plate than their big brother hand saws, particularly the man-sized ripsaw you've got there, so there will be a practical limit to how fine you can make the teeth, but I suspect you could safely double the existing tpi. In that case, you will only need to take off half the tooth depth, then file a new gullet between each of the existing gullets. That will be a fair bit of work & probably use up two files, so it may be more economical to take it to a saw sharpener & get them to do it for you. A file of the size you'll need costs around $15, so if they charge anything less than $30 you'll be ahead.

Something I'd consider is cutting an inch or more off the bottom as part of the 'conversion'. I think it would give the saw better balance & will also get the tooth line up into slightly thinner plate (assuming it's taper-ground, but I think it's old enough to have that feature), which will better suit a finer pitch...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Once cut down, you'll have a pretty typical panel saw length. The handle will be a little larger & will have one extra bolt compared with a 'genuine' panel saw. Judging by the number of "panel saws" one comes across with an "extra" bolt, quite a few hand saws have met a fate similar to yours.

Just a suggestion, but I'd increase the tpi for a shorter saw, I think you'd find 7 or 8 tpi far more useful in panel saw size. Panel saws usually have lighter gauge plate than their big brother hand saws, particularly the man-sized ripsaw you've got there, so there will be a practical limit to how fine you can make the teeth, but I suspect you could safely double the existing tpi. In that case, you will only need to take off half the tooth depth, then file a new gullet between each of the existing gullets. That will be a fair bit of work & probably use up two files, so it may be more economical to take it to a saw sharpener & get them to do it for you. A file of the size you'll need costs around $15, so if they charge anything less than $30 you'll be ahead.

Something I'd consider is cutting an inch or more off the bottom as part of the 'conversion'. I think it would give the saw better balance & will also get the tooth line up into slightly thinner plate (assuming it's taper-ground, but I think it's old enough to have that feature), which will better suit a finer pitch...

Cheers,

Ian

Typically the 28" saws have a plate thickness of .039" (sometimes .042"). 26" saws are .036" and panel saws .032". (This is a generalisation as there are variations of course). Taper grinding was not universal a hundred years ago and was a feature of the name brand saws much more so than the Warranted Superior offerings. A simple check with a vernier gauge will verify this for Nick. I think his saw could be from the 1960s or later so it is encroaching into a time where taper grinding was fading from popularity.

While I agree that ideally a 7/8ppi tooth pitch would probably be more in keeping with the new saw length after it is shortened, it is quite a bit of work or cost and it will still be thick. If only half the tooth is removed and new teeth filed in between, the set will be wrong and have to be reversed on half the old teeth. While only the top third of the tooth should be set, this is slightly theoretical and I suspect in practice some bending will still occur further down the tooth particularly if the average hack has had a go at it. The chance of even a single broken tooth as a result of setting rather spoils the effect. If the saw is taken to a specialist saw sharpener they will remove all teeth and start afresh so that would probably be easier. The last rip saw I re-toothed was a 5ppi model and it took a little more than thirty strokes (I gave up counting) just to shape each tooth. Much is dependent on the quality of the steel there. Poor steel is much faster and less work. We should remember that part of the reason hand saws feel from favour was the need to sharpen them and not everybody has your dedication to saw filing. Re-toothing is a big ask, at least without a Foley-Belshaw to assist

My inclination would be to keep it as a fast, rough cutting saw with the current tooth pitch. Maybe not absolutely ideal, but a compromise between what we have and the level of effort involved. Then keep the eyes peeled for other saws to suit different purposes. While there is a resurgence in hand tools, hand saws can still be acquired cheaply.

Regards
Paul