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Thread: Buying New Chisels
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1st July 2020, 03:47 PM #1Senior Member
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Buying New Chisels
I'm spending more and more time in the shed and would like to buy some decent chisels and give hand cut dovetails a good try.
I am a novice woodworker but have a trade background - so I like decent tools even if I have to grow into them.
Would something like this be a good start?
https://www.timbecon.com.au/bevel-ed...-woodline-plus
Am I better off buying a full set or just one or two at a time.
Thanks for your help and advice.
Regards
Glenn
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1st July 2020 03:47 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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1st July 2020, 05:03 PM #2SENIOR MEMBER
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In short, those are fine for starting out, many others will chime in and say the bevels are too big etc
I'm no handtool expert so for my purposes the Narex chisels are adequate for my needs. If you don't have any chisels i'd recommend a set of 5-6 chisels. I mostly use the 1/4 and 1" chisels for my needs, but do find myself often grabbing the others when the need arises.
On a separate but related point, how's your sharpening game?
I found the one thing that lifted my dovetail game more than anything else was having sharp chisels, so before you blow the bank on the best chisels you can afford allocate a surprisingly amount of time and finances to your sharpening setup.
Sharpening for me used to be an afterthought until i discovered what a truly sharp chisel can achieve.
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1st July 2020, 05:09 PM #3GOLD MEMBER
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the luban from McJing are also often talked about... Luban 6pc Bevel Edge Chisel Set
(+50 on the sharpening game and the benefit a very sharp chisel brings, not just what you thought was sharp)
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1st July 2020, 05:47 PM #4
Hi Glenn
Personally I find that 3/4" (or 19mm) is one of my most used chisels. But that might be the type of work I have been doing lately.
Many might find 19mm be too wide.
My advice is don't buy a set.
NSW TAFE teaches cabinet making apprentices using a set of just 3 chisels -- 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4" (in mm that's 6, 12 and 19).
Steel choice is always a major challenge -- are you serious enough with your woodworking to go for Veritas' PM-V11 steel (AUD $170 to $210 each), or Lie Nielsen's A2 (AUD $120 to $150 each)? Or do you want to start with something less expensive? Like the AUD $32 Narex chisels you linked to?
If it were me and I was starting out, I'd buy just one really decent dovetail chisel -- say a Veritas PM-V11 in 3/8" size. Try it and see if you like it enough to keep using it.
No chisel will perform till the back is really flat and polished. Veritas chisels come with a back that is already flat -- it just needs polishing on a 8000 grit stone. But ensuring the stone is flat enough to polish the back of your $200 chisel is in itself a significant challenge.
So perhaps, start your journey by deciding how you will keep your newly purchased chisel in top condition.regards from Alberta, Canada
ian
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1st July 2020, 05:49 PM #5Senior Member
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Thanks for the interesting replies. Both Luben and Narex were on my radar but I wanted to check-in here before buying. I am not sure of exactly what type of chisel I needed
As for sharpening, I don't have a grinder but do have a nice set of water stones and can get a nice sharp edge with these on my el'cheapo Trojan chisels and plane blades.
I been using a Gifkens jig for years but have never tried by hand and I guess now I have the time. I'm sure I'll be the weak link in the process for sometime to come but figured investing in a nice set of chisels would spur me on!
Thanks again.
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1st July 2020, 05:53 PM #6
A good starting exercise is the gottshall block https://dblaney.files.wordpress.com/...shallblock.jpg
all the work can be completed using just one 3/4" bevel edge chiselregards from Alberta, Canada
ian
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1st July 2020, 06:10 PM #7Senior Member
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Ian, thanks for your post. I must have written my previous reply while you posted.
Funny you should mention TAFE NSW. This is my 30th year in their employment and probably my last. I haven't had much to do with Lidcombe TAFE where the furniture guys are - wish I had!
The tradesmen in me wants to buy the best tool for the job, but the novice doesn't know what it is yet.
I have those three sizes you mentioned and I do use the 3/4" inch most of the time (but not for dovetails yet).
I have water stones because I got into to knife sharpening a long while back - so I am cautiously optimistic about sharpening.
Spending the budget on one excellent chisel, as opposed to a set, is something I am considering. Accumulating nice tools is a slippery slope!
I hope you are enjoying Canada, that's quite a move from Sydney.
Thanks and all the best.
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1st July 2020, 06:45 PM #8GOLD MEMBER
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I guess you've been making boxes with the Gifkins? If that's the case and you are planning to hand cut dovetails on smaller boxes you'll definitely want a 6mm and 12mm. Have a look at making a Moxon vice as well, you'll never regret it. People have been posting good reports on the better spec. McJing hardware with the tr20 rods - Moxon Vice Hardware Kit
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1st July 2020, 06:53 PM #9Senior Member
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Thanks Aldav - I've been over engineering guitar amplifiers cabinets with dovetails and then covering them in tweed or tolex. But I love making them and they are super strong.
I'll probably start on drawers and work my way down to small boxes if I get the hang of it.
Thanks for the tip about the Moxon Vice - McJing is getting a lot of my disposable income
Cheers
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1st July 2020, 06:54 PM #10
I'll wager the "best" chisel you can buy won't improve your dovetails much over what you can do with your present chisels. Chiselling out the waste isn't the major part of dovetailing, careful layout & being able to saw accurately to a line are the keys. Unless you are trying to work with very hard woods, just about any old bevel-edge chisel will knock out the waste for you. Certainly, having sharp lands on your dovetailing chisels maks it easier to get into the corners of the tails without leaving bruise-marks. But if you use the typical angles of 1:7 or 1:9, most BE chisels can get close enough, if you exercise a little care. I got by for many a year with fat-edged things that were far from Veritas or LN quality, and working with "sensible" cabinet woods, I didn't find edge-holding to be that much of a concern. However, if you choose to work with very hard Eucalypts or Acacias or Allocasuarinas, edge retention will be a concern, and you will soon wish for PM-V11 style steels.
Like the others say, just go ahead & make stuff with the chisels you have (make sure they are razor sharp!), and before long you will have an idea of which sizes are most useful, and whether or not you want to spend big bikkies on a new lot. If you only have a couple of sizes of chisel, you tend to size your dovetails to what you have, which limits your repertoire a bit. The advantage of havng a full 'set' (whatever that may be), is that you can set out your tails according to what looks best to your eye, instead of being forced to use spacings that fit your chisels.
I reckon you would do better for yourself at this stage by investing in a good saw (& what to get is a whole 'nother can of worms!). But I predict you'll find that takes your work to a new level much more quickly than a PM-V11 chisel will......
Cheers,IW
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1st July 2020, 07:39 PM #11Senior Member
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Thanks Ian W. I appreciate your post and yes I am a bit short on in the hand-saw department too but I have a couple of Japanese saws that seem to do a decent job.
No doubt my complete lack of skill and experience is going to be the biggest obstacle, not the tools. But a good set of chisels has been on my shopping list for ages and with retirement looming it's time to act.
The buy once, cry once, mentality has stuck with me all my life. Doesn't mean I always buy the most expensive tool, just a good one.
I also appreciate your advice about 'careful layout' being the key.
Thanks again.
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1st July 2020, 08:07 PM #12
Don't get me wrong, I'm as keen as anyone on accumulating nice tools - a casual glance at my tool cupboard should verify that!
And indeed, one rarely regrets buying top quality, and having top-notch tools compels us to live up to them in our work.
I guess why I'm recommending you proceed cautiously is because without some experience, it's all too easy to buy what you or others perceive to be "the best" only to find out down the track that you might have been better off with something different. I did just what you are doing - splashed out on some of the "wish-list" tools in my last couple of years of work. I was pretty sure what I did & didn't need, having been woodworking for close to 40 years, & by & large, I am more than happy with what I ended up with except my BE chisel set. I bought a full set of 1/8" to 1" of LNs. Size-wise, they are perfect, with beautifully machined blades & sharp corners - just what I wanted. But oh how I wish I'd gone for the O1 instead of the A2 variety (O1 was offered at the time but they've since dropped it). At the time I was still in my "harder is always better" phase, but I've since moderated that attitude. The problem with A2 (for me) is that it needs a steeper sharpening bevel. With some of our softer woods (e.g. red cedar [Toona] the steeper bevel pushes the chisel back more when you chop down, & doesn't penetrate the wood as well as a more acute bevel.
So my point is, it's not simply a matter of buying "best", you need to know what you need for the sort of work you do. I did know A2 needed a higher bevel, but I didn't realise how much difference it made to me. Had I bought just one chisel & used it for a while, I would have changed my order.
You can never know everything, and even experienced folks make "mistakes", but by making stuff & accumulating some experience, you stand a better chance of making the right decisions...
Cheers,IW
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1st July 2020, 08:16 PM #13Senior Member
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Thanks again IanW. I'm very grateful that you have taken the time to provide such thoughtful advice. I really appreciate.
While I will have to work it out for myself, the generously shared knowledge on this forum gives me a great head start.
But you have got me thinking about saws.
Thanks
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1st July 2020, 09:32 PM #14
IMHO, the Narex Richter chisels are the best value at the moment. They're not as expensive as the LN and Veritas chisels but they're a step up from the Narex Premium line. The use a Chrome Vanadium steel cryogenically treated (just like the LN chisels) and tempered "to at least 62 HRc". They came out on top of Wood By Wright's chisel comparison test recently. Timbecon had them on sale last month but most of the sizes are currently out of stock. And they have very narrow sides to get into the corners of
dovetails.
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2nd July 2020, 01:01 AM #15
I went through this a few months ago and ended up getting the PM-V11 chisels. First I bought the 1/2" and 1/4", and then thinking, "mmm these are nice" I bought the 3/8" and 3/4". Then, in for a penny, in for a pound so I got the 3/16" and the 1". Gorgeous chisels......you'd never feel the need for another set, but they are expensive. Shortly after I got mine they all went up about 10% price wise too. The side bevels are amazing, they will bite you with very little provocation, so they take a little getting used to, but they're very sweet in action and the steel is exceptional. For most people these won't be an option, but if you can do it I just don't think you'd ever regret it.
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