Thread: Buying New Chisels

Thanks for the post Alkahestic. Good food for thought. The Woodline Plus chisels do look like the sweet spot for quality and price.

I've been eyeing off a Pax Tenon saw for a while too. My father had a full set of Pax saws when I was a kid - not sure where they ended up wish I'd paid more attention!

I don't have any power sharpening tools but I've got a good collection of stones - which should do until something needs major surgery (or I convert to the hollow grind camp).

Thanks again

In addition to my earlier posts, woodworking is essentially the "controlled" removal of wood.

Success can be equated to how easily / readily you can
1. mark out what needs to be removed. Accurate layout tools are therefore a must.
2. how well you can cut to a knife line. A sharp (well tuned) hand saw is more than helpful here. As your work moves from small boxes to timber framing, your saw needs to get bigger.
3. chiseling to your layout lines and not a thou beyond.


Perhaps rather (as IanW(?) suggests) start with a decent hand saw that can cut to a line and PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE your sawing till you can fit a hand sawn tenon to a mortice right off the saw.

Thanks again ian.

I really do appreciate how much I have to learn!

I tend to commit deeply to my interests and just don't won't to work my way up through tools - but I also don't need to waste money on tools I will never fully utilise.

And yes curse Ian W I am now looking at saws too and a better marking knife.

Really appreciate you input. Thanks

Originally Posted by IanW

Don't get me wrong, I'm as keen as anyone on accumulating nice tools - a casual glance at my tool cupboard should verify that!

And indeed, one rarely regrets buying top quality, and having top-notch tools compels us to live up to them in our work.

I guess why I'm recommending you proceed cautiously is because without some experience, it's all too easy to buy what you or others perceive to be "the best" only to find out down the track that you might have been better off with something different. I did just what you are doing - splashed out on some of the "wish-list" tools in my last couple of years of work. I was pretty sure what I did & didn't need, having been woodworking for close to 40 years, & by & large, I am more than happy with what I ended up with except my BE chisel set. I bought a full set of 1/8" to 1" of LNs. Size-wise, they are perfect, with beautifully machined blades & sharp corners - just what I wanted. But oh how I wish I'd gone for the O1 instead of the A2 variety (O1 was offered at the time but they've since dropped it). At the time I was still in my "harder is always better" phase, but I've since moderated that attitude. The problem with A2 (for me) is that it needs a steeper sharpening bevel. With some of our softer woods (e.g. red cedar [Toona] the steeper bevel pushes the chisel back more when you chop down, & doesn't penetrate the wood as well as a more acute bevel.

So my point is, it's not simply a matter of buying "best", you need to know what you need for the sort of work you do. I did know A2 needed a higher bevel, but I didn't realise how much difference it made to me. Had I bought just one chisel & used it for a while, I would have changed my order.

You can never know everything, and even experienced folks make "mistakes", but by making stuff & accumulating some experience, you stand a better chance of making the right decisions...

Cheers,

Ian, I have a different appreciation of the chisel steel thing. I agree with you that PM-V11 is top and that I would rather have O1 than A2. But the bevel angle issue is another matter.

First let's divide chisels into bench-for-hitting and paring. My Japanese paring chisels (laminated) are honed at 25 degrees, and I have a set of Boxwood Marples (O1 type steel) at 20 degrees for extra fine detail work.

But all my bench chisels are at 30 degrees since they will be used with a mallet or gennou. This includes Veritas PM-V11, Veritas O1, Koyamaichi white steel, and Blue Spruce A2.I have had the Blue Spruce chisels over 10 years, from the time they were first made. Indeed, Dave Jeske made some of the first ones for me. Before purchasing them I was debating whether I should owing to the 30 degree bevel needed. Then it dawned on me that all my Japanese bench chisels were 30 degrees, and since then I have also come to recognise that ALL chisels used with a mallet need to be 30 degrees, including the Veritas. The 30 degree bevel is not a concern of mine.

There is no doubt that the PM-V11 hold an edge considerably longer than the BS A2, however the thin blades of the BS are so nice to use that I forgive this

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, you might find your 30 degree bevels a bit of a nuisance if you did much work in Hoop Pine & Australian Cedar, particularly aged stuff, as I am won't to do - they much prefer to crush than cut if the chisel has a steep bevel no matter how 'sharp' the leading edge is. Steep bevels are fine in firm, crisp-cutting woods like Qld. Maple, but can be a right pita in the above-mentioned. I put a more shallow bevel on my LNs than recommended, and they tolerate it until I hammer one into something like Spotted Gum (which is a couple of notches up the scale from Jarrah in my limited experience of the latter) and they end up looking more like mini saws than chisels.

The problem isn't too hard to solve for a tool-tragic - I just keep several sets of chisels, each suited to the purpose I use them for. In partial defence, let me say the majority are old, many dating back to well before I was born, and acquired by diligent searching & strategic buying over many, many years.

But you don't need the absurd number of chisels I have accumulated, you can do good work with a small selection of sizes if necessary. I built some tolerably decent furniture when the only chisels I owned were 4 BE 'Blue Chips'. I now have 5 'sets', my work is a bit better, but not because I have several drawers of chisels. It's nice to be able to pull out a chisel that's 'just right' for the job in hand, but I freely admit I'm driven as much by 'collector' motives as practicality. My test of genuine necessity is "could I justify this under cross-examination by my best-beloved?", and I'm afraid I would have a pretty tough time doing that in many cases. It's all too easy to be seduced by the tools and forget that it's really about using them to just make stuff.

The problem with answering a question like the original post is that there are too many choices & too many unknowns. Only YOU can determine what's "best" for you, and time & experience make those decisions easier & much better informed. By all means solicit opinions, but take them all, even from hoary old-timers, with a grain of salt (age & experience also means we have had time to acquire more prejudices! ). I'm happy to offer advice like 'get a decent saw & learn to wield it well', but the only way to figure out what you actually need is to get stuck in & make things. Acquire the tools to do that as the need arises, and don't expect every purchase to fulfill all expectations. I don't know anyone who, after 10 or 15 years of active woodworking, hasn't changed at least half the tools they started with.

After all, that seems to be part of the fun too....

Cheers,

H'mm, I need more chisels.

Originally Posted by aldav

H'mm, I need more chisels.

"Need ", or "want", Aldav?

Originally Posted by IanW

"Need ", or "want", Aldav?

Definitely need Ian. It would be nice to have a few sizes with narrow lands and lower angle when cutting dovetails on softer timbers. Reading this thread has made me cranky I gave a nice set of 4 Marples to my son. I wonder if I can get them back? He's since acquired a set of Lubans. H'mm.

Originally Posted by IanW

Derek, you might find your 30 degree bevels a bit of a nuisance if you did much work in Hoop Pine & Australian Cedar, particularly aged stuff, as I am won't to do - they much prefer to crush than cut if the chisel has a steep bevel no matter how 'sharp' the leading edge is. Steep bevels are fine in firm, crisp-cutting woods like Qld. Maple, but can be a right pita in the above-mentioned. I put a more shallow bevel on my LNs than recommended, and they tolerate it until I hammer one into something like Spotted Gum (which is a couple of notches up the scale from Jarrah in my limited experience of the latter) and they end up looking more like mini saws than chisels.

The problem isn't too hard to solve for a tool-tragic - I just keep several sets of chisels, each suited to the purpose I use them for. In partial defence, let me say the majority are old, many dating back to well before I was born, and acquired by diligent searching & strategic buying over many, many years.

But you don't need the absurd number of chisels I have accumulated, you can do good work with a small selection of sizes if necessary. I built some tolerably decent furniture when the only chisels I owned were 4 BE 'Blue Chips'. I now have 5 'sets', my work is a bit better, but not because I have several drawers of chisels. It's nice to be able to pull out a chisel that's 'just right' for the job in hand, but I freely admit I'm driven as much by 'collector' motives as practicality. My test of genuine necessity is "could I justify this under cross-examination by my best-beloved?", and I'm afraid I would have a pretty tough time doing that in many cases. It's all too easy to be seduced by the tools and forget that it's really about using them to just make stuff.

The problem with answering a question like the original post is that there are too many choices & too many unknowns. Only YOU can determine what's "best" for you, and time & experience make those decisions easier & much better informed. By all means solicit opinions, but take them all, even from hoary old-timers, with a grain of salt (age & experience also means we have had time to acquire more prejudices! ). I'm happy to offer advice like 'get a decent saw & learn to wield it well', but the only way to figure out what you actually need is to get stuck in & make things. Acquire the tools to do that as the need arises, and don't expect every purchase to fulfill all expectations. I don't know anyone who, after 10 or 15 years of active woodworking, hasn't changed at least half the tools they started with.

After all, that seems to be part of the fun too....

Cheers,

Ian, you make a good point with the soft timbers. Of course, we in WA know nothing of these woosy woods. Then again, we walk about singing "I'm a lumberjack, I'm OK ...".

The softest wood I tend to use is Tassie Oak. That is generally well-behaved, sort of. None of that ruly Hoop Pine is available here.

Having agreed with you, I begin thinking about Japanese woodworkers using 30 degree bevels in their soft woods ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks everyone for the great discussion. Who knew chisels could be so interesting. Every time I talk about chisels and knife sharpening people back away. But not here


I learned a lot from this thread

Originally Posted by derekcohen

....Having agreed with you, I begin thinking about Japanese woodworkers using 30 degree bevels in their soft woods ....

Derek, don't forget there are Softwoods (i.e., gymnosperms) & there are soft woods, which may technically be Hardwoods (like Toona & Balsa ). We sometimes get confused by the name. For example, I believe one of the Softwoods they use in Japan is a Hemlock, which is quite firm & crisp-cutting for a Softwood.

If you sit a chisel in the scribe line on a piece of Toona, & whack it hard, it can drive the back of the chisel half a mm or more into the 'good' wood, & the steeper the sharpening bevel, the more pronounced the effect. Using woods like that is what got me started sawing out most of the waste from D/Ts, for e.g., to make it easier to chop to the line without overshooting. We were taught to chop all of the waste out at school, which was fine with the decent woods we were given to work with. Sawing out all but a mm sure makes the job quicker, & much easier to prevent over-shoots in any wood, so it soon became a habit for me...

Cheers,

OK, here's a question since the Japanese woods have been introduced into Fluddman's discussion your Honours. What is the timber they use when with those giant planes (pulled too I think) and produce a gossamer thin shaving three metres long that could be written on and towed behind an aircraft as an advertising banner?

This is what I mean:

YouTube

Go straight to 1m 55s for the comp.

Regards
Paul

Ps: Love those drums too.

Dunno Paul, but it looks like a conifer of some sort. Whatever it is, there's about 20 cubic metres of it in that hall, about to be turned into gossamer ribbons. But it might take a while, even our guide's "fat" 16u shaving is just over half a thou!

I use pairs of skew chisels in form line carving. I have two pairs of Narex 12 mm that are very nice to use. I have pairs of others.
I revised the bevels from 25* down to a more common carving tool bevel of 20* Just easier to push or pull.

Most of my Pfeil carving tools start to get hard to push in about 30 minutes. I can feel the edges going away.
Narex, OTOH, takes more than an hour for the same sensation. Hone with CrOx is adequate and keep working.

I can see easily the usefulness of a set of chisels were I to be making furniture and complex joinery.
I'd buy Narex and not blink. I think they are good value.