Thread: Buying Dovetail Saws

I'll be watching and reading this thread with interest. I'm kinda looking along the same lines as you too Planepilot.

What are the Irwins like in this bracket ?

I too will be watching this thread as I have been thinking about buying a dovetail saw. I was kinda thinking that I really would like something of quality that I might own for the rest of my days though.

Cheers
Rumnut

i have some older wooden handled sandvik's and some later years where the handles are plastic with wooden inserts, also some bahco prizecuts and some others..i just use the later two for cutting pvc piping, although of course they will cut timber, when new they tend to hog through it pretty quick too, if you havnt got anything else or if they are the only saw you have used then you dont quite know what your missing in comparison to using a vintage saw and because they seem to do the job you think, why bother i cant be missing much

the trouble with modern bahco saws and such begins with the handles, their design, often, pretty much asks you to use them with a four finger grip which doesn't give you the control of a three finger grip and thumb and index finger resting each side of the handle, thumb and finger (particularly the finger) steers the saw for accurate cuts but using a sandvik, bahco etc with plastic handles my index finger can only just make it across, so just the tip to the first knuckle makes it (if i am lucky!) across the grip space in the handle and i have fairly long fingers! many people wouldnt be able to reach across at all probably, like i say many seem designed for four finger grips and arnt very comfy for three finger grip, although habit always makes me use three finger grip, sometimes i use four when doing lots of sawing, partly because of that type saw is uncomfortable using three (up on a roof for example lobbing ends of ceiling joists off or crawling around in tight spots) where i am not following any lines and something like my sandvik can be ok to use then, it has a pretty thick blade , more modern saws often have weaker thinner blades. so they are ok for just hogging timber to length not following a line but still arnt as nice as using an old vintage saw.

they have very aggressive hang angles too which helps eat through the timber quick but that comes at a price of harder to push over longer periods, thats ok if your used to it though, if not and your going to get sore forearms, also an aggressive hang angle makes it a bit harder to have fine control for accurate cuts and starts, you tend to need to break your wrist angle which can get annoying after a while if not uncomfortable, also because the modern saws dont have taper ground blades if your doing much work they can bind in the cut, for a few different reasons, sometimes its just due to the moisture content, the heat from sawing combined with the moisture swells the fibres and the cut closes a tad, with a tapered blade you have less binding if at all

the differences arent as great with dovetail (small gents) saws that you mention but they are still there, the overall quality is less but they can/do work well enough, the handles arnt quite as nice but you can put some tape on them for better grip (sports tape or even sticky med plaster tape) and they can come loose on occasion but would generally see out the life of the blade. the blades are very weak and flimsy by comparison but again if you look after them it probably wont matter. you take what you given with the hardened teeth, i like to choose what teeth i have, rip, crosscut and different fleam angle for at least soft or hardwood, with hardened teeth they are usually somewhere in-between, a compromise for cutting both soft and hardwood and maybe rip..a saw i have filed for say softwood, when used in softwood leaves a hardened tooth saw for dead, much nicer to use a saw filed for the type of timber your cutting

the other obvious aspect is and although i dont consider myself a greeny as such there is something to be said about avoiding pure waste, for the sake of a file you can touch up a regular saw blade in quick time, those small teeth take very little effort to touch up

cheers
chippy

Originally Posted by tdrumnut

I too will be watching this thread as I have been thinking about buying a dovetail saw. I was kinda thinking that I really would like something of quality that I might own for the rest of my days though.

Cheers
Rumnut

Go a lie-nielsen, beautiful thing to use $180 but worth every cent and will last you the rest of your life

I guess I should say from the outset that part of my objection to those plastic-handled things is pure predjudice, but there really is a difference between using one of those and a well-balanced, old-style saw with a 'proper' handle! You can probably do good work with one, if you persist, but as Ch!ppy says, they are about as ergonomic as an old boot, and any I've tried leave a pretty ragged cut (due largely to the excessive set they come with) and you will be hard-put to make truly neat dovetails off-saw with one, I reckon.

The financial equation does seem appealing - a new saw for less than it costs to sharpen, but that can be changed radically by learning to sharpen them for yourself. An immediate advantage is that you can sharpen in ways that suit your skill levels & the sort of work you do with them. And like Chippy, I just hate the thought of chucking away all that steel. It's actually perfectly good saw plate, and the extra hardening only goes a mm or so above the tooth line. You could try your hand at entering the dark world of re-sharpenable saws by cutting off the hard points and giving it a new set of fangs.

I would also challenge your assertion that buying these hard-point things means you always have a sharp saw. They certainly do last a lot longer than sharpenable teeth, but they do wear, & most folks seem to end up using a dull saw for quite a while before realising it's past time for a new one.

Still, it's horses for courses. If you don't want to spend time learning to sharpen saws & if hard-points do what you need, they are obviously your best bet. If you are planning on making dovetails in stock less than 20mm thick, I would suggest you look for something with about 15-16 tpi, for more comfortable & controllable sawing..

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Planepilot

I am cosidering the purchase of a new Dovetail saw and the options are many and varied. I am leaning toward buying a Bahco PC-10-DTR (13 TPI) .......For many years I have had a Sandvik 7 TPI which was used for carpentry work. .....However in recent years I have been using a 19" Bahco Prizecut .....

Hold your horses! Are you talking about a dovetail saw or a panel saw?

I can believe a dovetail saw that is 13 tpi ... but only just. It would cut REALLY fast! An understatement. Generally, dovetail saws are between 15 - 20 tpi, depending on the thickness of the wood.

Also, a 19" plate would make a longish tenon saw, or a short panel saw, but as a dovetail saw ..???

The last point is that I have yet to come across a impulse hardened saw with large teeth that will leave a fine kerf. They are more likely to be quite coarse.

As Ian recommends, a 15-16 tpi is a good allrounder, with fine set, and a plate about 10" long is ideal.

Look at the Veritas 14 ppi saw. It is the cheapest (high) quality dovetail saw on the market (about $95).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Hold your horses! Are you talking about a dovetail saw or a panel saw?

I can believe a dovetail saw that is 13 tpi ... but only just. It would cut REALLY fast! An understatement. Generally, dovetail saws are between 15 - 20 tpi, depending on the thickness of the wood.

Also, a 19" plate would make a longish tenon saw, or a short panel saw, but as a dovetail saw ..???

The last point is that I have yet to come across a impulse hardened saw with large teeth that will leave a fine kerf. They are more likely to be quite coarse.

As Ian recommends, a 15-16 tpi is a good allrounder, with fine set, and a plate about 10" long is ideal.

Look at the Veritas 14 ppi saw. It is the cheapest (high) quality dovetail saw on the market (about $95).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, your always quick to point people to your friends products, but really, based on 13tpi being not enough teeth seems a bit of a wild stretch! perhaps your horses got away from you ...13tpi is the same as the veritas 14ppi

i agree that the bahco isnt an ideal saw, which i think i managed (tried anyway) to point out, not having singularly purpose filed teeth for a start, and as i perhaps too delicately pointed out they loose their keen edge soon enough too and IanW's point about too much set is often valid with many of these saws too, although too much set can often be taken out easy enough

its not the joint, in this case dovetails that determines what TPI should be used but other factors such as thickness of timber etc etc, the OP didnt say what work he wanted to do but one would assume he likes straight handled saw for smaller work, there are lots of semi cheap options apart from veritas

cheers
chippy

Hi Chippy

You're correct about 13 tpi = 14ppi! (that did register distantly in my diminishing grey matter ... ) But I did make a typing error - the Veritas is 14 tpi (or 15 ppi), not ppi.

It is a damn fine saw, and the cheapest quality Western dovetail saw around. I have a number of much more expensive saws, and it holds its own with ease (just not the nicest looking in my opinion). And another error I made - it is $79 at Carba-tec.

Can you find a cheaper, quality Western dovetail saw?

I am not sure if one can reduce the set in impulse hardened saws? Can you? Will the teeth break?

Regards from Perth

Derek

If you want a high quality saw for very little money, hit the flea markets, or boot fairs, or whatever you want to call them. You can get some of the best saws ever made for less than the price of a cup of coffee. Sharpening is something you have to do whether it's a saw or a chisel or a plane or your pencil. And all of these things can be sharpened to suit your particular needs. And nothing that is mass produced is truly sharp. Even expensive chisels and plane irons must be sharpened before use. If you want a precision cut you must sharpen, and saws are no exception.

Toby

What about Japanese saws.
The Razorsaw rip dozuki saw from Stu at Tools from Japan has been highly recommended on these pages. I only gave mine a quick whirl last weekend but it cuts very nicely and was only $45 when I got it, probably around $50 now since the $ has dived. As with a lot of Jap saws if the blade gets blunt or damaged you can keep the handle and just get a new blade. I've also got a couple of dozuki saws (a small and a large) from Carba-tec but I think they must be cross cut ones as they don't seem to be as fast as the rip cut for dovetails.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Hi Chippy

You're correct about 13 tpi = 14ppi! (that did register distantly in my diminishing grey matter ... ) But I did make a typing error - the Veritas is 14 tpi (or 15 ppi), not ppi.

It is a damn fine saw, and the cheapest quality Western dovetail saw around. I have a number of much more expensive saws, and it holds its own with ease (just not the nicest looking in my opinion). And another error I made - it is $79 at Carba-tec.

Can you find a cheaper, quality Western dovetail saw?

I am not sure if one can reduce the set in impulse hardened saws? Can you? Will the teeth break?

Regards from Perth

Derek

well its not ideal is it, i mean why would you, only if you happen to have one thats giving you trouble and generally i wouldn't have one for working with wood to begin with, i dont like them, having said that i am going to contradict myself because i have got some, the reasons are long an varied why one ends up with these things, but as i said earlier i use them for cutting other things mostly. i have mucked around with them, just to see what happened to them, changing set and filing the teeth right off too, to put new teeth in, they can break if you take it too far, but you can change them too, its not impossible

there are a number of el cheap gents type saws(straight handles), without hardened teeth that are about $20 or so delivered, with a type of rosewood handle if i remember and brass backs, i prefer DT saws with pistol grip handles (i think thats how they are described, not sure, you know, open handled) so i dont use them much, i use one of their flush cut off saws though, its ok, but for new saws they are excellent value, i am amazed at their prices and what you get for it, on the cheapo side but i dont think anyone would tell from the finished joint, its the teeth that do the cutting after all. however i am with Tony, you can get excellent quality second hand DT saws, even the number 68 disstons which fetch more money than they should but still considerably less than $79, $79 isnt bad for being in Oz and a brand that gets as much attention as it does on this forum but their are cheaper options that work too

Just to throw a cat in amongst the pigeons, I've been using this li'l Dozuki for my dovetails. With <0.4mm kerf I've found it's ideal.

I've been using mine for the last 6 months or so, although admittedly mainly on Rock Maple, and it's still cutting as quickly and accurately as it did when new. I don't know how it'd last on Aussie woods - too hard to find to play with over here in Canadia! - but I guess I'll find out for myself once I make it back home to Oz.

Even though the blade is disposable I believe that even though it's impulse hardened it's possible to touch up the teeth. Assuming my eye-sight and fine motor skills are up to the task, of course! (fingers Xed)
Should it prove to be beyond my sharpening skills, with it's performance:cost ratio I'll happily spend the dollars to buy a replacement blade. (And there's not many tools I'll say that about! )

I have been using a little Japanese pull saw with a 0.39 mm kerf. The only down side is that it loves to wander of the cut line at the slightest provocation. I saw some Veritas dovetail saws at the Brisbane wood show. They are about $75. All the other Veritas gear is high quality and I have no reason to think that these would not be also. Anyway I am getting one to find out.

Instead of tryng to stop a person posting who provides some of the reviews here, why not get off your collective bums and post some reviews of your own? More reviews are better than no reviews, and a much better and more informative approach to the suggested bias.