Thread: Change panel saw toothing....X cut to rip ?

If you keep the same number of teeth than all you need do is joint the tops off the teeth then file at 90* to the blade to sharpen. Easier than sharpening a xcut. Google saw sharpening. There is so much info on line and also on this site.
You should not need to remove more than half the depth of the existing teeth at most.
Regards
John

Thank you John, ...I believed that I wouldn't lose much depth of the saw plate but wanted reassurance. I'll follow your advice and search the site.
Cheers, Greg

Greg - welcome to the site.

To add to what orraloon said: If you simply wish to change from crosscut to rip configuration & maintain the pitch (tpi), there are only two features you need to change. You will need to remove any fleam by filing the teeth straight across as mentioned, and you will probably also need to alter the rake angle. Rip saws commonly have somewhere between 5 & 8 degrees of negative rake, while crossscuts are a bit more laid-back at something between 7 & 12 degrees. Sometimes it's even more than that, though it's unlikely on a larger saw. If this is your first go at saw filing, it's a good place to start - medium-sized teeth are easier to see, and filing straight across is much easier to keep constant than the angled strokes for crosscut teeth.

If the saw has been sharpened at a commercial saw sharpening place recently, you may well find the teeth are already cut straight across, and at goodness knows what rake angle - too many saw sharpening places have no idea how to sharpen handsaws any more! As suggested, a light jointing is advisable, both to check that the teeth are level, and also to give you a reference when reforming the teeth to your desired configuration. To set up & maintain a constant rake angle, use a short square stick on the end of your file, like this (here I'm forming new teeth on a blank plate, hence the paper template, but the principle is the same):
Teeth 3 red.jpg

You drill a small hole in the stick, then scribe a line at the correct angle beside the hole, so that when the file is pushed into the stick with one face matching your line, that face will be at the right angle, with the stick held horizontal. You only need one stick, because it's ok to file all teeth from the one side when forming. After you set it, you then go back & do the sharpening step. You won't need a stick now, because the nicely-formed gullets are your reference. Sharpening is normally done on each alternate tooth which has the trailing edge to your left (if you are right handed) and is pointing away from you. Switch the saw around in the vise (or switch the whole saw vise around if it's the type that fits in your bench vise), for the other side.

You might want to experiment a bit with the set, to find what suits you best, If you saw a lot of slightly moist wood, a generous set is advisable, but if you are an experienced sawyer & cut only dry wood, you can get away with a much lighter set. It's a common fallacy that the numbers on saw-sets refer to the number of tpi, but they do not - they are just data points for your convenience & future reference. Set is determined by the thickness of the saw plate - you need more for thicker plate than thin. For me, a set that gives a kerf somewhere between 15 & 20% wider than the plate thickness works well under average conditions. If you have a feeler gauge & a set of calipers, you can easily check kerf width, but if not, using the saw will tell you what you need to know. Too little set and the saw will bind & be 'un-steerable', while too much gives a vibrating, noisy, saw that will wander all over the place uncontrollably. If the saw wants to veer off constantly to left or right, the teeth (or some teeth) have too much set on that side. This is a common fault whan you first start setting saws, because you tend to squeeze the set a bit harder on one run, or place it on a slightly different spot on the tooth - after a while you get a lot better at being consistent. In any case, it can be easily fixed by gently running a medium grade sharpening stone along the tooth line a few times. Do this with care, and check the saw after a couple of light swipes, or you can easily over-do it and have the saw going in the opposite direction.......

Good luck, & welcome to the arcane world of handsaws....

Cheers,

Ian, Thank you for the welcome and you very thorough explanation/advice. I have read and learned from these forums for quite some years now and am slowly gaining sufficient knowledge to ask questions. Thanks for a great response, I will follow your advice. Greg

Hi Greg.

Ian knows sharpening, so he's pretty well covered it ... but I thought I might be able to add a couple of tidbits.

I grabbed a 7pt saw to think about what you want to do. (You said 'panel saw' ... this one is 26" so yours might be shorter)

7pt 001.jpg

First thing - your saw might be breasted like this one. When you joint the teeth you don't have to file it into a straight line (although you can). You can follow the existing curve if there is one.

This saw came in a 'saw-chest/till' from the US - and they were all described as "sharpened".
This saw is not blunt - it had no problem crosscutting a 40mm x 125mm (1-1/2" x 5") jarrah plank.
But have a closer look at ... the toe ... the middle ... and the heel. (The handle is to the right)

7pt 004.jpg 7pt 003.jpg 7pt 005.jpg

The teeth are not too bad at the front, losing it on one set in the middle ... and by the end ...!
So even a cuckoo filing job can give you a workable tool.

You can see that these teeth are leaning back (raked) at something like 40 degrees from the vertical.
Chances are yours will not be at so much of an angle.

The teeth are going to start something like this ... (picture from VintageSaws website)

crossprofile1.JPG

And when jointed ...
crossprofile1b.PNG

What I wanted to ask Ian, Chippy, anyone who has tried it, is ... what's the best way to go about making those front faces become more vertical?

Base of the saw-file in the gullet and most of the pressure to the right-hand side?
Aim to remove most of the flat from the left-hand side? or still part from the left and part from the right?

Thanks,
Paul

Thank you for your input Paul.....for what it's worth my saw is 24" and has a straight tooth line(not breasted). Your question re changing the angle of both faces of the tooth was the same one that sparked my initial question as to how much of the existing teeth that I would have to remove. Hopefully someone has a simple answer. Thanks again, Greg

The answer is pretty simple. As you surmised Paul, you simply lean on the file a bit in the direction you want it to cut more, and you determine this by watching the flats & trying to keep them reducing evenly. By holding the file firmly with the stick, you keep the faces oriented, and by cutting one face of the tooth at the right angle, the other is automatically correct. There are probably several ways to reform teeth, but I like to go a little at a time, so I work my way along the saw taking one or two strokes in each gullet. I find if I try to do too much at once, the teeth end up wonky (though I must say, I don't think I have ever managed to make as many 'cows and calves' as the example Paul shows! ) It's easier to do than describe, just have at it & after a while, you'll get the hang of it.

One 'secret', if there is any, is to make yourself a decent saw vise of some kind. There are several designs kicking about, which Google should soon find for you, and most are not too big a challenge to make. With the saw held firmly, & using a nice, sharp file and a steady approach, you will be amazed at how well you can do first try. As Paul says, even a pretty ordinary job of sharpeening can result in a saw that cuts, and a good job will give you a saw that cuts sooo sweetly......
Cheers,

Thank you all. I've read quite a bit on various sites about filing angles & techniques, bought a Gramercy saw vice and files from Tool for Working Wood but the little details that you have offered have added that vital piece that was missing from other sources that I have read...I guess what remains is for me to start practicing. Thanks again, Greg

Send before and after photos (please).

Hmmm ... "breasted" was far too kind a description for this saw ...

It is crying out for some 'healing' ... damn.

7pt 006a.jpg

I'll try.
Thanks for your advice Paul and to IanW also.
Greg

I will put up a snippet from Tom Law on this re-raking of the teeth as soon as I can.

Paul.

He is shaping a saw with pretty variable rake back to zero rake teeth.
Setting and then sharpening comes after.