Thread: Chasing fine sharpening

Hi David. Do the diamonds come suspended in a paste? As in a stropping compound. Can you recommend a "brand"?

Is it something like this Diamond Sharpening Stone, 4Pcs Knife Sharpener Stone Whetstone Honeycomb Diamond Plate Sharpening Stones with Non-Slip Base for Kitchen Sharpening Dull Blunt or Tired Edges (400/600/1000/1200 Grit): Manual Knife Sharpeners: Amazon.com.au

I am still using sandpaper on an off cut of Caesar stone, (400, 800, 1200) it is not the ‘scary sharp’ that everyone talks about but I have made all my chisels backs flat with this method. I just have to fine tune the front side sharpening

I definitely don’t have spare money to chase tormek and find wet and dry sandpaper to be adequate for my current needs.

however it is like all things woodwork- a journey, my first “builds” were finished at 180 grit. A few years ago I went to a Ubeaut day which opened my eyes a little. I now sand all the way through to 1500 grit before I start applying finishes.

sharpening, I think if someone has a sharp chisel, you can always be given one sharper.

cheers

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

Hi David. Do the diamonds come suspended in a paste? As in a stropping compound. Can you recommend a "brand"?

This is actually a dust. I would suggest anyone who wants to have a paste use their own oils or solvents to make the paste as you pay a lot for pastes in syringes.

Since the diamond is lapidary supply (very intolerant of errant particles), the brand doesn't really matter. Even inexpensive lapidary supply is much more tightly graded than most sharpening stones and certainly vs. buffing compound (like the LV green bar, which leaves more of a 2 micron scratch pattern and can have particles up to 6 microns in it - that bar is a much different animal than what people claim "0.5 chromium oxide". The latter is exceedingly fine and perhaps so much so that it's better suited to razors, especially on a softer backing metal).


here's an example of something I'd buy without reservation. Rely in this case on the W number as I would bet it's lower or middle of the road for the average particle size. So W2.5 and W1.0 would be good choices.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256803886764547.html

These are $5US each shipped from what I can tell for 100 carats. 100 carats is something like 25 grams, perhaps. you apply a tiny pinch of this to a hard surface or to a hardwood, add a drop of oil and then use it to work over an edge that's off of something that's "pretty sharp".

You want to do something like this for the fine step only, though - diamond plates for more coarse, so no need to get anything more coarse than 3 microns or so with this.

I'll show some comparable pictures next post.

8000 grit waterstone - this is kitayama, but similar to king 8000
https://i.imgur.com/wPTmGgR.jpg

shapton cream 12000:
https://i.imgur.com/86XdNqK.jpg

sigma power 13k (one of the few stones that's closely graded, but it is a lot slower than the shapton pro/cream 12k. it may not seem like it is, but viewing its work under the microscope tells the tale. I have one of these stones but almost never use it because it's thirsty, soft and a bit slow. I guess one would wonder how I have the pictures if I don't have the stone so maybe saying that I have it is redundant - i took these pictures).
https://i.imgur.com/SiPcrwV.jpg

bonding grade 1-3 micron diamond mix on very hard wood - note this picture is taken at double the magnification of the prior pictures. bonding grade is a lower grade than lapidary, but it's still very closely graded. I think the meaning of "bonding" is like bonding to a tool - less demanding than faceting stones, etc.
https://i.imgur.com/R91QCgu.jpg


The way to look at these pictures is really to discern how smooth the edge is - how uniform. much of the scratching or other stuff on the wider flat surface is inconsequential. if the edge looks uniform and is very straight looking, it's very fine, as all of these pictures are at high magnification (the last one at double the magnification is only about .009" of edge). That last high res picture was taken more to illustrate how fine and cheap can go together and that also to include being able to cut through carbides and leave only abraded scratches.

of all of the stones shown here, I would use a medium stone preceding this, like a semi-coarse oilstone and the last bonding grade diamond above and beyond any of the prior stones. I can't find a link to this package of diamond grit, but it was about $13 for 100 grams. Decades' worth of stuff.

I took this picture a few days ago to illustrate a point - these powders are both fine, but also extremely strong cutting, and will cut through carbides of anything - including...well, carbide, but more importantly, through tungsten and vanadium carbides.

Originally Posted by Wrongwayfirst

Is it something like this Diamond Sharpening Stone, 4Pcs Knife Sharpener Stone Whetstone Honeycomb Diamond Plate Sharpening Stones with Non-Slip Base for Kitchen Sharpening Dull Blunt or Tired Edges (400/600/1000/1200 Grit): Manual Knife Sharpeners: Amazon.com.au

I am still using sandpaper on an off cut of Caesar stone, (400, 800, 1200) it is not the ‘scary sharp’ that everyone talks about but I have made all my chisels backs flat with this method. I just have to fine tune the front side sharpening

I definitely don’t have spare money to chase tormek and find wet and dry sandpaper to be adequate for my current needs.

however it is like all things woodwork- a journey, my first “builds” were finished at 180 grit. A few years ago I went to a Ubeaut day which opened my eyes a little. I now sand all the way through to 1500 grit before I start applying finishes.

sharpening, I think if someone has a sharp chisel, you can always be given one sharper.

cheers

This is more about the finer end of things than those wafers or the chinese milled steel plates, but the wafers or plates you showed in that link are good quality. A diamond hone on par with relatively expensive made in china woodworking retailed stuff is about $7 in china. The same 8x3 two sided steel core stone is about $20 in the US through amazon, and I have used several - they are good quality.

it is true that you can generally find a sharper tool, but it's probably worth nothing that you can have a tool that's perhaps as sharp as you can possibly differentiate from anything else in the same time that it takes to sharpen one less well. the idea is focusing effort where it counts vs. rubbing a large bunch of metallic surface that's not at the cutting edge.

FTR - I picked that listing off of aliexpress to get you guys something you can see vs. getting the listing off of ebay. however, I have bags marked by the same person who marked those - same thing. I've gotten some loose diamonds in the US in the last half decade, but it costs the same for 10 carats of diamond powder as it costs for 100 from china, and I just don't see any difference in the results.

David, how do you handle and apply the diamond dust so it stays contained? I was warned years ago not to use it around any machinery due to the dust being so abrasive.

Apply a tiny pinch of diamonds to hardwood and put a drop of non drying oil on your finger and rub the diamond into the wood. It'll never get I'm the air that way. Touch contamination of larger diamonds is an issue, thus its better to not have more than just the finest step on loose diamonds.

Maybe 8 years there was a series of posts on honing with diamond paste on flattened steel plate or MDF.one member supplied a lucky few of us with steel plate, the right size he had ground to flatness required.I purchased 3 grits from Veritas ,6,3,and 1 micron, it is a lifetimes supply and results are great and if followed by stropping on leather glued to flat substrate very sharp edge is achieved, of course there are many other methods. I remember Fence Furniture located several local diamond paste suppliers,used in jewelry trade maybe , thanks Ross

Just ordered some (8000 grit or W1)

Diamond Powder Polishing 40 -10000 Grit Carbide Oxide Lapidary~Stone Tumbling | eBay

Now I have a 3 to 6 week wait

I've had good results using fine diamond pastes on one of these: Veritas Steel Honing Plate | Carbatec

The paste seems to bind wuite well into the steel surface; a little diamond paste goes a long way !

Originally Posted by Mr Brush

I've had good results using fine diamond pastes on one of these: Veritas Steel Honing Plate | Carbatec

The paste seems to bind wuite well into the steel surface; a little diamond paste goes a long way !

mild steel and castings work well. For castings, a blanchard ground offcut works really well - just lapping a casting still leaves a lot of tooth on it and makes it hard to get the fineness.

Something like 12 or 15 years ago, the pastes made their rounds in the US and then LV followed up later with mild steel, probably because it was easier and cheaper to provide than precision ground casting offcuts. Not more than about 4 years ago, some generous person sent me an offcut of casting that was really nicely ground and that opened my eyes as I'd been using less neatly ground steel and castings, or whatever was around in a pinch.

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the case I'm making here is a little different, though - one of those tubes of lapping stuff has a lot of fluid in it and it may or may not be wanted, with the same said about use on a metal surface. In this case, I'm advocating just buying $5-$10 of diamond grit/flour and using it on hardwood on the flat side, and then pulling on the bevel side. The softness of the wood provides a lot of give, and the all-in is a lot less. It's also easier to deal with things like gouges or paring chisels where the hard metal/castings can lead to edge deflection.

I have microscope pictures of various methods, but I won't bore anyone. I never really start taking pictures of things until I'm happy with the results, so it's not like anyone needs microscope pictures for this. I still have that wonderful piece of casting, but it's intolerant of any shop dirt, wire edges, or ambient dust being on the casting, and narrow and curved things are about like biting a stainless steel bowl in feel.

that's not to say that the plate and paste isn't a very viable final honing method - it absolutely is - it's just a bit more equipment intensive and wood will feel a little more like using a stone. The ability to do something like use a cheap 2/3 micron flour and have it out-finish a 1 micron synthetic stone edge is also nice.

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my point in starting this was less so much of "here, do it my way", and more of "here is a really cheap way that works. and the wood seems to coax the burr off. the average person has trouble dealing with a burr when honing on a medium that creates one, and this is a way around dealing with it. How do you find out you have trouble with a burr or burr removal? Take a freshly sharpened tool. Shave hair with it. then flip it over and shave hair with the bevel oriented the other way. if there is a difference in how easily it shaves, there's probably a problem with a burr.

these kinds of things (this $5 per pretty much 10 year pouch of diamond flour - or more - if you used one of those on cast with a drop of oil, it would last a lifetime - as you point out about mild steel - cast is sort of the same thing but slightly superior in action - diamond sticks in the cast, and the tips stick out. You can use it for a while before having to refresh with just the tiniest amount).

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Baby oil or any light mineral oil that you find cheap is good for this use on wood. I haven't found a wood yet that's hard enough that this becomes harsh, but wood that is too soft is kind of a pain. I mean like 350 janka balsa soft - those really soft types of woods should be left for the folks stropping razors with light pressure in a very clean (wood dust free) environment.

I may not have made my point too well about this "really cheap" way, too - it seems like we leave a lot of people hanging with the desire to only promote stuff that's within the woodworking community or be too cautious and not curious enough with things that are really inexpensive and no less bad.

This is one of those things. I just happen to be a curious and sometimes crabby guy who has a microscope so when I perceive something, I can go look and confirm.

I think we are sometimes to source centric on things, and certainly too personality centric in terms of the source or advice. Of the truly fine workers I've come across, all sharpen everything to a high standard and it has become a matter of routine habit for them.

I hate to hear a guy is getting into woodworking and listening to a joiner and stopping at 400 grit paper or a 1200 grit diamond hone or something when 30 seconds and $10 or so separates him from getting a terminally sharp edge. These little things create "terminal" sharpness - as in no matter how long you're woodworking, you will not find any practical improvement from anything.

The only time you might be SOL is if you don't have any scrap hardwood or anything laying around.

If the scrap wood gets clogged up or dirty, just take a card scraper and scrape the top layer off and re-level it. Or just scrape it and if it's close to flat, don't worry about it too much. It won't be removing much steel from what you're sharpening and the flatness is less critical than that of a prior step.

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

Just ordered some (8000 grit or W1)

Diamond Powder Polishing 40 -10000 Grit Carbide Oxide Lapidary~Stone Tumbling | eBay

Now I have a 3 to 6 week wait

Hopefully that's not the case on the wait. In the states, when we get a notice of a 5 week wait time or whatever, it usually takes something more like 5-10 days on small stuff and maybe 15 on big stuff.

In the longer term, the bigger issue is accidentally dropping the bag or cutting it at some point! I've accidentally dumped a bag of diamond powder (more coarse stuff - fortunately it wasn't that great to use in the first place).