Thread: Cheap Handsaw to Practice saw sharpening

I would spontaneously think, the best.might actually be to get an old one to restore. Maybe sharpening that might even be a bit mire difficult because the teeth might already be a stuffed up. But if you manage that then you also know how to fix it when you made a mistake or so.

But I am sure you'll get more advise here.

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You’ll need to go hunting through markets etc and look for old saws. New saws are generally made with induction hardened teeth that will simply destroy files; plus the teeth are shaped more like those on Japanese saws and won’t take a tri-square file. I don’t know of any cheapish new saws that would suit your purpose.

So long as the handle is in reasonable condition you can ignore the state of the rest of the saw. You just want to practice sawfiling, right? So just brutally carve off any rust with whatever method you like and practice resharpening the teeth as they are now. Once you’re happy with those, file them down and change from a cross-cut to a rip (or vice-versa) and then try different pitches.

It’s really not that difficult at all once you’ve worked out the correct angles and profile you want. My “problem” is that I have to mentally approach nearly every tooth as if it is the very first tooth I work on otherwise I sort of get carried away and the angle of the dangle starts to move around. The first saw I sharpened (a 26” 4-1/2 TPI rip) I had to do over again because I could clearly see on the teeth where I was getting over confident!

Get some old ones on eBay for next to nothing.

noted noted. Thanks Cklett and Chief Tiff!!

I will have to keep my eye out and go a few more places after stage 4 haha

Thank you!!!

As the chief said, avoid anything with impulse-hardened teeth. You can usually spot these very easily by the plastic handles & the bluish discolouration of the teeth & maybe 1mm into the plate. OTH, they can be had for nothing or next-tonothing & you can take one of these and cut off the existing hardened teeth (very easy), then re-tooth, set, & sharpen it. Do that a couple of times & you'll be well on your way to being a competent saw sharpener.

You may do better finding an old saw from before around 1980, which still has reasonable-looking teeth, they can often be had for a few dollars at flea-markets etc. It's obviously easier to follow existing teeth than make new ones, just place the file firmly in the gullet & concentrate on keeping your strokes even & at the right pressure to cut smoothly & keep the teeth even. To keep a constant rake when filing in new teeth, you can spend a good deal of money on a commercially-made gadget, or use a small stick as a guide. I have drawn a series of lines along he top of my saw vises, about 20-30mm apart, at the common fleam angles to help keep these constant when filing. The actual angles aren't super-critical, but keeping them constant is important. You only need to worry about fleam on crosscut saws, and really only on those with about 12tpi or fewer. Saws with tpi of about 15 or higher work just as well for all practical purposes if filed "rip", i.e. straight across and with about 5-8 degrees of negative rake.

I tried to find an old thread on sharpening, but the threads I found have lost their pictures and are of limited use. The interweb is replete with saw-filing videos, so you might do well watching a couple of those. Don't be put off by slightly different approaches, the principles remain the same however you go about it.

It's mostly just practice, eventually muscle-memory takes over. To get really good at it, you need to sharpen a lot of saws regularly, but given there are few professional sharpeners around, not to mention the cost, it's worthwhile putting the effort into becoming reasonably competent. It's been said that a not-so-well sharpened saw is still a lot better than a dull one, & I agree with that!

Cheers,

Bernard

The first question really is to make sure your saws are re-sharpenable. Let's assume so. Presumably they are around 15ppi or higher so if this is the case there is one advantage in that you can sharpen the teeth in a rip style, but also you have very small teeth: Hard to see and hard to see if you are making a mistake. Most of the new saws at a cheap price are going to be the induction hardened variety, which as the Chief pointed out cannot be sharpened. This is what seems to be generally available on Ebay, Your best bet is the likes of second hand stores and gumtree. You could buy a cheap saw and cut off all the teeth. However, while you are back to metal that can be filed you have the additional task of cutting in new teeth.

In a thin plate saw with small teeth new teeth can be formed very quickly, but still an exercise that you may not wish to do at this stage.

Regards
Paul

I know you're aware of this Bernard, I thought I'd post this for anyone else in Melbourne that doesn't know.

When/if it is able to run, the Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia run excellent Hand Tool Market twice a year as well as Tools and Trades days (talks and demonstrations).

Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc. - Antique & Collectable Hand Tool Market

I've picked up many an old saw there. Old ones with a lot of wear are about $5 as well as ones that are usable immediately for $10-50+. Last time I went, I got an old long one for $5, a decent but quite light build tenon saw for $10. It had a (I think) fixable bend in it and I got it because it was freshly sharpened. Another I 'should' have got was a very very solid heavy Sheffield pewter or something for $50. I didn't at the time as I didn't want to pay to sharpen it and at that point I wasn't planning to learn how to sharpen saws.

eBay and FB Marketplace of course can have some great deals. I missed out on an amazing one a month ago unfortunately.

I've been sharpening cheap (soft and easy to work) spade bits which has been an easy entry into gaining practise with sharpening with a file.

In the meantime, maybe make a saw vice and try and find a saw set. I was lucky enough to get one for $10 from FB Marketplace that you're welcome to borrow if need be.

thank you everyone for your advice. I appreciate it!!

Sorry if the later half of this post is a bit off topic, but it might possibly not be,
I have a question later about the sawplate hardness on the disposable type.


As said by everyone, find some old ones to learn on.

On a few of the older saws I have, there were hard spots in the plate, and they make mince meat of the files.
It's a good to have at least a pair of files for the job at hand.. if its, I suppose over a hundred years old.

Don't know if you want to do some panel saws whilst your at it, but
I suggest if your filing off damaged teeth on a back saw and re-cutting them again,
then start with a lesser tooth count TPI/PPI like a short panel saw.
This means you need a good vice to hold a long saw, which might also make a nice arm rest

If your only needing to touch up a saw in good nick, then you may not want to bother with a huge saw vise as sharpening might take about 5 mins
and be a breeze.
Either way Andy Lovelock's video on youtube ..Sharpening western saws, is the best video you can find on the subject without question.
I had great results copying his techniques, and making a similar vice, maybe a hint longer.

I cut a 9TPIpanel saw without making a diagram, made a few mistakes along the way but fixed them, took a while without a graph,
and I don't have any computer skills, nor printer to do a graph for the teeth.

Not having the graph turned out to be a right pig of a job to recut a plate with 13 TPI, I was to find out, it was much more difficult to cut those smaller teeth,
but on the flip side, I touched up a 12TPI saw I bought, and it was an absolute breeze to do.

In the end I got some wide masking tape, stuck it close to the tooth line, and marked lines every half inch across the tape and it was great!
No need for fancy computer skills thankfully.

Andy's video
Sharpening Western Saws - YouTube

My question...
I assume many folks have been down the same route with a handful of saw files that's spent..
I have been wondering if that saw plate on those induction hardened disposables is a softer plate than on the vintage ones.

If it were really soft plate on some, It would be very handy for my skip scavenging salvage rugsack, and I could use my old files to the end.
I have many reasons for wanting a cheaply bought looking saw scavenging in town.

Has anyone noticed when making scrapers from any disposable saw that it was considerably softer steel than others...
which in turn might have led you to the angle grinder again to cut up another one?
I've only hacked up one saw for scrapers so far, and I can't say I've noticed any drastic difference when jointing,
compared to the old saws I have worked on.
I'll admit that I haven't been very observant on this until recently.

Would hope to hear something like on the very cheapest throwaway saws, the plates are made of cheese

Tom

Originally Posted by Tom trees

Andy's video
Sharpening Western Saws - YouTube

My question...
I assume many folks have been down the same route with a handful of saw files that's spent..
I have been wondering if that saw plate on those induction hardened disposables is a softer plate than on the vintage ones.

Tom

Andy Lovelock's video is one of the best places to start for an all round instruction on handsaws. In times gone by he participated on this Forum, but had to rationalise his time so regrettably we no longer see him here.

The problem with worn saw files is that the corners take the brunt of the pressure and are the first part of the file to fail. That is exactly where you need the sharp teeth for re-toothing. If you look up Paul Sellers videos he demonstrates a technique utilising a hacksaw to mark the teeth out. This also has the advantage of minimising the amount of filing done with the corner. Saw files after they appear worn and no longer viable often still have useable teeth on the flat sections. Using the Sellers' method you may be able to extend the file life a little longer. I don't throw these files straight out but save them for sharpening spade bits.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Tom trees

....
My question...
I assume many folks have been down the same route with a handful of saw files that's spent..
I have been wondering if that saw plate on those induction hardened disposables is a softer plate than on the vintage ones.

If it were really soft plate on some, It would be very handy for my skip scavenging salvage rugsack, and I could use my old files to the end...

Tom, I think I probably answered this question on another thread, but for the sake of completeness in this one, I'll make some further comments:

As I said, I have not found any saw plate from hardpoint saws to be noticeably 'soft', but that's not to say there aren't any - the way retailers are racing each other to the bottom, it would not surprise me! However, we are saved to some extent because you could not harden low-C steel at all by any means, so if they are going to the bother of induction-hardening the teeth, it has to be an alloy with a minimum C content. While 1080 might not reach the same degree of hardness on initial heat-treating as say 1095, when tempered for use as saw-plate, they probably aim for about the same degree of hardness'. Logic suggests they might like the plate to be a bit softer than on a re-sharpenable saw, to ease the load on the toothing machines, but as I suggested in the other thread, if the plate above the hardened tooth line were left in an annealed state, I think the saws would be even more useless than some of them are now!

And I seriously doubt that a saw file that has spent itself filing regular plate would be of use for any further saw sharpening, unless you really do make a blade from cheese (& may I suggest you at least try Parmesan, or some other hard style ). It is always the corners of saw files that give up the ghost first, the force of filing is concentrated there, and so either the corners wear away (very quickly on overly-soft files, of which there are too many), or they chip on overly-brittle ones (and there are too many of those available too!). Chipped corner teeth is probably the most damaging 'injury', because the broken ends catch & make it extremely difficult to make smooth, even strokes, which of course is something you very much want to do when sharpening a saw.

The only good use I've found for spent files is for cleaning out metal dovetail corners when making infill planes. The teeth in the centre are often still in good shape even when the corners are trashed, so I grind off the corners of any that look like they have plenty of life left on the flats & make them into "pseudo-barette" files. They can also make useful scribes & scrapers for metalwork...

Originally Posted by Tom trees

.... I have many reasons for wanting a cheaply bought looking saw scavenging in town....

Maybe we won't question you any further on that point....

Cheers,

You beat me Paul - I must've been typing when you responded...

Thanks Bushmiller

I'm sure Andy's lurking somewhere, I'm subscribed to his channel and seen briefly that he was constructing something that looked like the beginnings a workshop.
I do hope it goes smoothly for him and hope to see more soon, as he does make excellent productions.


Indeed I have watched Paul Sellers use the junior hacksaw, and I may well have to try it in the near future.
I am a bit sceptical of my ability to do this accurately, but who cares with an old junker saw anyways.
I may well make another shorter panel saw also if it works out alright..ie some life left from doing them like Paul demonstrated.

Perhaps with a panel saw I have, I could test the plate hardness on the back of the saw to see how things go...
Make a few nibs for an upsidedown saw, instead of having to cut the very last bit with a hacksaw where some doors meet the glass.

I have shied away from all those "tricks" that make the front of the saw start easier, as many shout heresy
and as such will admit to having to pay more attention and using the pinch grip mentioned always by Cosman.
I guess I will learn more this way, and a bit of a glutton for punishment I suppose.

Unfortunately/fortunately there'll be no pinch grip in a dark skip when I will have use for them, so I will be digging for more info on the
best method of possible heresy involving the front of the saw

A separate TPI or progressive pitch like Rob Cosman's (not 100% percent sure exactly what his saws are like, and will have to dig further)
or just knocking the tops off the teeth like what Paul Sellers demonstrates.

I'm kinda leaning on wanting to keep the teeth the same, especially on a skip salvaging saw that has much chance of getting damaged.
What say ye about knocking the tops off?
Is it a wee bit of "magic" shall we say, or will doing so prove useful for me?

Thanks again
Tom

Originally Posted by Tom trees

.....A separate TPI or progressive pitch like Rob Cosman's (not 100% percent sure exactly what his saws are like, and will have to dig further)
or just knocking the tops off the teeth like what Paul Sellers demonstrates.....

As an over-enthusiastic saw maker, I've been down that road, Tom. There are trade-offs for mucking about with altered tooth profiles to make saws easier to sharpen. Perhaps because I've used saws for at least 60 years, I can't remember starting a saw to have ever been a bother (it must've been once, & I will admit my thumping great progressive pitch rip saw does take a bit of concentration on hard wood, but it usually responds to the back-draw-&-shoot approach). Practise & persistence are your best bets.

Progressive pitch is a bit of a gimmick, imo; it probably helps on the aforesaid large ripsaws, but on backsaws? Meh! Cutting a bunch of finer teeth on the toe is easy enough to do if you're making a saw from scratch, and if the teeth are large enough on an existing saw, you can halve them, but you still have to joint off a lot of steel. I started doing it years ago, but soon decided it was more bother than it's worth.

For rip saws, I think the best bet for anyone who sharpens their own is to simply ease the rake back to near-zero on the first inch or so at the toe,or even make them a bit negative if you want to go really wild. Easy to do and easy to maintain.

That's fine for a rip tooth pattern, but you have to change rake angle dramatically on a crosscut to make a significant difference. Just select a saw with a tpi appropriate for the material you're cutting, keep 'em sharp and properly set and they should start every time....

Cheers,