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  1. #1
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    Sep 2004
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    925

    Default Cheap hard point saws.

    There are lots of reasons why you might buy a hand saw; the look, the history, the fun of restoration. But at the top of the list, sometimes must be to simply cut some timber.

    Now I like saws. I have a goodly collection of Veritas back saws and Japanese pull saws which I use for joinery. But I get my timber mostly in rough sawn slabs and sometimes in 8 by 4 sheets. Little joinery saws are not much use for the initial breaking down of the larger bits. So I use a panel saw.

    (More sensitive people may wish to log onto some other site now.)

    About 10 years ago I bought a cheap ($10) hard point panel saw from Mitre 10. For ten years I have cut up boxing for concreting sheds, cut all sorts of sheet materials, docked slabs to manageable lengths. It still cuts okay but today I lashed out and paid $12 for a Barcho 7 TPI panel saw. I cuts just fine, cross and rip. I know the old saws look nice and work just fine. But I wonder if the original manufactures of theses saws would have made the saws the way they did if they had had access to the cheap efficient materials to make saws and methods of building them, that are available today.

    I know that none of this is relevant to those who are passionate about their favourite saw. But the question is worth asking I think.
    My age is still less than my number of posts

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Range View, Australia
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    656

    Default

    I bought two Bahco panel saws for $14 at a Mitre 10 sale a year ago. Still on the first one. No complaints, we must be anarchists. I want to make some scrapers but the damn cheap thing won't go blunt.
    Cheers, Bill

  4. #3
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    Sep 2004
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    Brisbane
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    The old one I bought years ago and which I pensioned off today was abused neglected mistreated. It has just now shown signs of this abuse. The new one cuts fast and accurate to a pencil line. I will not be cutting dovetails with it but it will do the job of breaking down large bits to smaller bits nicely. I can hear the Diston saw lovers sharpening their knives and I will be sleeping with the light on.
    My age is still less than my number of posts

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    The Shire
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    325

    Default

    Interesting question. I think the answer would be yes. If such technologies as injection moulding and induction hardening had not come about then we would still have saws as they were in the '40s. Unstoppable forces? Maybe, but we can be the little speed bumps or perhaps the rear view mirrors to this "progress".

    Cheerio,
    Virg.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    McBride BC Canada
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    3,543

    Default

    I have a Stanley Sharptooth(?). It seemed to have the edge sharpness to cut any sort of wood
    that I lay it into.
    But, I'm happy to report how to blunt one in a hurry.

    First, you buy a bunch of soapstone (steatite) blocks for carving.
    That stone carves with a screwdriver, if you have nothing else.

    Then you decide to do the roughout with a handsaw. No big deal
    but stone dust ain't sawdust. Anyway, I am merrily cutting along
    with no difficulties but this particular cut seemed to be taking forever.

    Finally got the slab cut off only to discover that I had sawed through
    a 10mm band of very small iron pyrite/Fool's Gold/Iron sulfide crystals.
    Seems to work well enough to blunt hardened saw teeth.

  7. #6
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    Mar 2004
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    Brisbane (western suburbs)
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    Horses for courses, Chook. I carry a hard-point in my ute and am often grateful for it. It's just the ticket when I come across a bit of wood by the side of the road that needs a bit of 'adjustment' to fit in the tray. You're quite right, they cut quickly, and if you're lucky (or maybe buy the right brand!?) they even cut straight. If you can't, or don't want to sharpen saws (which is perfectly reasonable given all the other skills one needs or wishes to acquire), HP saws can be a godsend, when you need a hand saw.

    But I feel obliged to say a few words in defence of the old 'soft-pointers'. There is a difference between doing a hasty job with my plastic-handled 'convenience' saw and doing a 'real' job with one of my Disstons. I don't think I would ever reach for a HP over my progressive-pitch 3-5tpi to rip a long 2" board! The Disstons have handles you want to hold in your hand, they have a balance & action that none of the shorter, narrow, plastic-handled things I've tried can remotely match, and they can cut as fast & more sweetly when properly sharpened. On top of all that, words can't describe the satisfaction that comes from still using a saw the old pot was wielding on job sites more than 70 years ago.

    The down-side is the Disstons have to be sharpened regularly, but I can live with that.....

    Cheers
    IW

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia.
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    1,268

    Default

    A few years ago I picked up a 400mm plastic handled saw from Aldi for about $6.00, with the aim to keep it in the ute behind the seat for the same reason as IanW gave, been a real saver at times. Well that disposable saw became so used and liked when doing a job away from home, that I eventually brought another one for the shed.

    My 8 TPI beautiful to hold, Australian Disston, along with my 3 TPI American Disston, with teeth like a still from the Jaws movie, do distinctive jobs exceptionally well. One cross cuts along a pencil line while the other rips along a pencil line at a gob smacking speed, that has to be seen to be believed. Neither of these can really do the others job, as in reality they are specialists.

    The little Aldi saws will do both jobs pretty close to perfect, although it’s cross cutting ability is better than it’s ripping ability, the handle could be better, but for the price I don’t quibble.

    I believe that if Disston were making saws for the masses today, they would not only desire to use modern techniques and materials, they would be going out of business quite quickly if they didn’t embrace them.

    Mick.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Victoria
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    Default

    i use a hard point occasionally but I always think, "this is as sharp as it gets, it's downhill from now on". Besides there are only so many scrapers you want to make and it rankles throwing good steel away.
    Cheers,
    Jim

  10. #9
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    Sep 2004
    Location
    Brisbane
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    Default

    What Ian says is true about time and skills. The fact is I have rudimentary saw sharpening skills at present and there are so many things I want to do that it looks like being at least 12 months or more until I get to saw sharpening in any serious way. But I do have some large slabs of camphor laurel on the way that need breaking down now. These hard point saws look as ugly as sin. So do my narex chisels. So do I. The saw and the chisels work really well.
    My age is still less than my number of posts

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Jervis Bay South Coast NSW
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    354

    Default

    I don't own a band saw or a table saw as I don't really have room for either therefore I dimension all my wood by hand. I have compared my new hard point saw to the old disstons and spear and Jackson's I have. The hard point is good as far as crosscut maybe within 10% of the dedicated disston rip saw when it is sharp. But when ripping the gap is more like 20% and when you are ripping a lot of wood that' makes a huge difference. I only use my hard point for cutting MDF and ply.

    Sent from my GT-P3110 using Tapatalk

  12. #11
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    Aug 2009
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    Armadale Perth WA
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    I keep it pretty well undercover, but I'm quite a fan of the old handsaws. But I don't have anything against the hardpoint saws.
    Ok - one thing, but I'll come back to that.

    I've mentioned before about hardpoint saws - I spent a saturday morning visiting 5 or so local hardware stores to see what was available in the way of taper files, but also noting the saws available. It's on here somewhere.

    You could get a good range for $10-20 ... and then the $20+, $30+, upto $50-$60. And there were sharpenable S&J (probably rip??) saws about the $60 mark ... including one ($#$%&%) that had a ... LASER GUIDE ... yes ... on a handsaw.

    I've also posted a kit of my 2ndhand timber ferrous de-toxifying kit ... and a couple of Irwin hps are an important part of that. They came from a pallet-with-sides at Bill's Machinery (Gnangara) ... ex the water company apparently ... musta been 200+ of them. $5 each and varying stages of rust. I got two and had them for several years now. They are dulling now but they were the first indication to me of what good sawing could be like. My vague memory from childhood (in which sawing barely featured) was of it juddering back and forth and sticking and being awkward.

    I've said before it would be worthwhile to have a thread saying what hps we've used and how did they go. There's a lot out there and pretty well priced ... but you don't wanna shell $30 for rubbish - ok, I don't.

    That's my one peeve ... is the passing of some useless piece of metal vaguely in the shape of a saw as a marketable item. I was fixing some stuff at our industrial unit ... just needed to cut about 1m or so of mdf. Hmmm .. 6 min to home or 2 min to the hardware? Walk in, grab a little $5 saw ... didn't think anything of it 'cos the Irwins are pretty good ... just to find that I could bend it in half with my hands ... and when thrown it didn't even boomerang.

    So mdf, plaster, plywood, (sandtone!), dodgy timber ... definitely hps are the go.

    But the Irwins are 8tpi japanese tooth. Very little set, very smooth cut potentially ... sometimes kinda slow. Homesy brought a Bahco rip 5ppi (I think)(maybe S&J) around here ... and we tried it and some 'proper' saws. It was ok to good, but a really good saw is much better. You can't control the set ... and I expect with a hp rip it will be a bit on the wide side. You can make amazing accurate cuts when there is only just enough set to keep things moving. The Irwins were pretty much like that crosscutting ... but too slow to rip with.

    So to now put the other side ... ok two other sides. One side is the 40s/60s/70s saws ... there are cheap as chips in general. Rusty ... but clean up easy ... do what you like with them. This sorta stuff ...

    20140304_045733 (Medium).jpg
    I can see electrolysis or similar on these ... cleaning the teeth off will be kinder on the files when it comes to sharpening.

    Don't get hung up on sharpening! Just file rip ... forget crosscut until you've tried it.

    Here's the material required:
    ... sawfile + handle (I say try the Nicholsons at your hardware. For handsaws ... 5ppi-8ppi ... chances are it'll do. Or order online from LV and the others)
    ... two lengths of 1"square pine to put either side of the blade in your vice.
    ... a bit of wood with a hole in it to jam the file into. (I liked it with a thin drill bit sticking up vertically to help me aim vertical vs horizontal)

    Here's what to do:
    ... file straight across. All from the one side. That's it.

    You decide on the rake of the teeth ... 0o, 4o, 8o ... set the file in the piece of wood that way and go for it. Couple strokes all the way down. Then start again.
    If you sharpen chisels or plane blades, or use a grinder, or can start a mower then you are qualified to try filing rip saws.

    For the setting ... just try it as it is ... in pine ... in hardwood. Then borrow a sawset.

    This is simplifying ... there's lots of info out there ... but all those saws in the picture the teeth were ok shape and arrangement.

    Try crosscutting with a 8ppi or 10ppi ripsaw ... or use your hardpoint

  13. #12
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    Aug 2009
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    Armadale Perth WA
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    The last point was about quality.

    Obviously there are damn fine modern products from Wenzloff, Bad Axe, Ron B, etc etc ... but I like the old saws.

    I don't know yet how to quantify it, I can say this much ... there exist now saws - even some that were at the cheaper end 100 years ago - that are still an amazing piece of work. That point was what lead me to reveal my disturbing obsession with saw-toinking. (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/saws-beyond-ridiculous-182512)

    So you can appreciate them for the work/design in the handles ... the feel in hand ... the quality of work put into the blades ... the history ... the medallions or lack thereof ... the etch or stamp ... but also that all this time later they can become a super-fine-working tool.

    Quoting Bad Axe tools ... (http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/my-sa...technique.html)
    "You can always tell when a saw has been properly jointed. It just rips along the length of your stroke with that horsefly buzz you can feel all the way up your arm, and your nostrils flare with the stink of red oak as the sawdust piles copiously beneath your sawbench into a little pyramid on your workshop floor like the sin of Onan. It's truly a rush the first time you experience this.
    That's the moment--the epiphany--that seminal moment, when one plunges headlong down the slippery slope of saw abuse. Be warned. Read Tom Price's 'Daddy Has a Saw Problem,' and get ready for the ride. Set up a new checking or PayPal account SWMBO knows nothing about. Make sure I know your work address before shipping, so you can sneak the contraband home late at night while your household slumbers unaware of your sin."


  14. #13
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    Mar 2004
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    Paul, while I could quibble with a couple of minor points (pun?), I think your overall message is spot on!

    In essence: Get an old saw, clean it up a bit as necessary, have a crack at sharpening without being too anal about a perfect job on your first (or even second!) try, and you'll be amazed that it probably cuts almost as well as any saw you've had in your hands.

    IW

  15. #14
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    Feb 2008
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    Victoria
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    Omg pmcgee! First time I've heard sawing compared with onanism. Merchant banking now...
    Cheers,
    Jim

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbur View Post
    Omg pmcgee! First time I've heard sawing compared with onanism. Merchant banking now...
    So I guess he's way further gone than I am!

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